Bozo Wrote:Interesting take on the matter in hand, A.
My opinion is that employment matters, therefore being apathetic about jobs when you have one or don't need one strikes me as an " I'm alright Jack, stuff the rest of you " attitude which I wouldn't expect from you. Maybe you don't mean it that way.

I mean to say that it is easier to not care when one is not affected.

'Enjoy' was used sarcastically.

Socialism and capitalism are not exclusive... in the US we use both to a high degree. Fairness in a workplace according to current skill level cannot include any other judgement. Color of a person's skin scarcely enters into it, and sexual orientation certainly does not. Fairness cannot be assured, let alone be assured by making even more unfairness.

A minimum wage is not needed so much as a mandatory comfortable living wage. Maximum wage is to suggest that one stop making new things when they are at the top.

A stoner is a marijuana druggie.

(July 30, 2011 at 5:07 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote:

Bozo Wrote:Interesting take on the matter in hand, A.
My opinion is that employment matters, therefore being apathetic about jobs when you have one or don't need one strikes me as an " I'm alright Jack, stuff the rest of you " attitude which I wouldn't expect from you. Maybe you don't mean it that way.

I mean to say that it is easier to not care when one is not affected.

'Enjoy' was used sarcastically.

Socialism and capitalism are not exclusive... in the US we use both to a high degree. Fairness in a workplace according to current skill level cannot include any other judgement. Color of a person's skin scarcely enters into it, and sexual orientation certainly does not. Fairness cannot be assured, let alone be assured by making even more unfairness.

A minimum wage is not needed so much as a mandatory comfortable living wage. Maximum wage is to suggest that one stop making new things when they are at the top.

A stoner is a marijuana druggie.

I think it is beyond debate that socialism is fundamentally different to capitalism.
The idea of a maximium wage is to put a limit on what the top earns at the expense of the bottom. In a word, exploitation.

Thanks for letting me know what theVoid is

(July 30, 2011 at 6:42 pm)bozo Wrote: Thanks for letting me know what theVoid is

I am also a stoner, an Ent I profess, but a stoner nonetheless.

And there really is nothing wrong with stoners either

Bozo Wrote:I think it is beyond debate that socialism is fundamentally different to capitalism.

Not at all. At the base they together state the same goal: to gain. Their singular difference is that one of them explicitly states that if you don't succeed you fail (hard). The other one hides this fact beneath idealogical banter that prevents anyone from getting ahead.

"Russia is such a great country, we are all equal! Equally poor."

In my experience, the only real 1 dimensional political line that can be used is one where you have "Individualism" on one end, and "Collectivism" on the other end. Libertarianism is obviously at the "Individualism" end; socialism / communism are at the "Collectivism" end, with the actual political parties in play today at various points between them.

@bozo

My definition also appears in the Oxford English Dictionary:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, esp. those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occas. in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

It mentions prejudice / antagonism, but not as part of the actual definition; more as part of an example.

(July 30, 2011 at 7:11 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: And there really is nothing wrong with stoners either

Bozo Wrote:I think it is beyond debate that socialism is fundamentally different to capitalism.

Not at all. At the base they together state the same goal: to gain. Their singular difference is that one of them explicitly states that if you don't succeed you fail (hard). The other one hides this fact beneath idealogical banter that prevents anyone from getting ahead.

"Russia is such a great country, we are all equal! Equally poor."

I'm sorry but capitalism is an economic system based on competition, whereas socialism is based on co-operation.Fundamental difference.

Russia is interesting in that its form of communism gave way to gangster capitalism and over the last 20 years the rich have doubled their wealth, 2/3rds are no better off and the poor were better off under the old system.( source Moscow School of Economics ).

---

theVoid,
I don't have any right at all to limit what someone takes from a business. I do have a right to express an opinion as to why a maximum wage might make more sense than a minimum wage. That's what I express.

As to your habits, frankly I don't care a jot. It was another who described you as a stoner, a term unknown to me. So are you?

---

(July 30, 2011 at 7:04 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote:

(July 30, 2011 at 6:42 pm)bozo Wrote: Thanks for letting me know what theVoid is

I am also a stoner, an Ent I profess, but a stoner nonetheless.

OK, showing my ignorance of modernity again, what's an " Ent "?

(July 31, 2011 at 7:05 am)bozo Wrote: I'm sorry but capitalism is an economic system based on competition, whereas socialism is based on co-operation.Fundamental difference.

That's not true, capitalism has both competition and cooperation, what is known as mutual self-interest, I cooperate with people in the economy because it's valuable to me, I cooperate by offering my labour at a cost to someone who is willing to pay for a service, we both get what we want - I compete with other people with the same skills, we both want the work, the person hiring wants the best value for money - the price I can charge is a function of the demand for my services relative to the supply of said services.


What I take issue with is coerced or compulsory cooperation, telling someone that they must do something because it is in the interest of others.

Quote:Russia is interesting in that its form of communism gave way to gangster capitalism and over the last 20 years the rich have doubled their wealth, 2/3rds are no better off and the poor were better off under the old system.( source Moscow School of Economics ).

Sure, Crony capitalism is a terrible system;

wikipedia Wrote:Crony capitalism is a term describing a capitalist economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, and so forth.

We both agree that tyrannies are the problem and Crony Capitalism is the capitalist equivalent of a totalitarian socialist state - The problem in both circumstances is not whether the economy works from mutual self interest and private ownership or coerced cooperation, but that people who are greedy have the force of government working to serve their interests.

The thing I think we will agree on is that the use of government to support special interests is pretty much the worst thing that can happen, regardless of whether the special interests are corporate entities or the whim of an idealogical dictator.

---

(July 31, 2011 at 7:05 am)bozo Wrote: theVoid,
I don't have any right at all to limit what someone takes from a business. I do have a right to express an opinion as to why a maximum wage might make more sense than a minimum wage. That's what I express.

Of course, expression is fine, I would even support public condemnation of rich people who pay their employees as little as possible while making massive profits, but the important question is would you legislate it?. That is where my concern with authority lies, while I may condemn someone who does such a thing I have no business coercing them with threats of imprisonment. Someone who is willing to work for a low wage, your typical unskilled worker for instance, then they are free to do so and a business is free to employ them, despite how much money they make.

Also, out of curiosity, how would the numbers work on a maximum wage? Would you say that no person can make x% more than their lowest paid employee or something along those lines?

Quote:As to your habits, frankly I don't care a jot. It was another who described you as a stoner, a term unknown to me. So are you?

Well, given my forum title is "Administoner" I'd say that's a safe bet

(July 31, 2011 at 7:25 am)theVOID Wrote: Well, given my forum title is "Administoner" I'd say that's a safe bet

That, and your avatar has a marijuana leaf in the middle of it. XD

(July 31, 2011 at 7:25 am)theVOID Wrote:

(July 31, 2011 at 7:05 am)bozo Wrote: I'm sorry but capitalism is an economic system based on competition, whereas socialism is based on co-operation.Fundamental difference.

That's not true, capitalism has both competition and cooperation, what is known as mutual self-interest, I cooperate with people in the economy because it's valuable to me, I cooperate by offering my labour at a cost to someone who is willing to pay for a service, we both get what we want - I compete with other people with the same skills, we both want the work, the person hiring wants the best value for money - the price I can charge is a function of the demand for my services relative to the supply of said services.


What I take issue with is coerced or compulsory cooperation, telling someone that they must do something because it is in the interest of others.

Quote:Russia is interesting in that its form of communism gave way to gangster capitalism and over the last 20 years the rich have doubled their wealth, 2/3rds are no better off and the poor were better off under the old system.( source Moscow School of Economics ).

Sure, Crony capitalism is a terrible system;

wikipedia Wrote:Crony capitalism is a term describing a capitalist economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, and so forth.

We both agree that tyrannies are the problem and Crony Capitalism is the capitalist equivalent of a totalitarian socialist state - The problem in both circumstances is not whether the economy works from mutual self interest and private ownership or coerced cooperation, but that people who are greedy have the force of government working to serve their interests.

The thing I think we will agree on is that the use of government to support special interests is pretty much the worst thing that can happen, regardless of whether the special interests are corporate entities or the whim of an idealogical dictator.

---

(July 31, 2011 at 7:05 am)bozo Wrote: theVoid,
I don't have any right at all to limit what someone takes from a business. I do have a right to express an opinion as to why a maximum wage might make more sense than a minimum wage. That's what I express.

Of course, expression is fine, I would even support public condemnation of rich people who pay their employees as little as possible while making massive profits, but the important question is would you legislate it?. That is where my concern with authority lies, while I may condemn someone who does such a thing I have no business coercing them with threats of imprisonment. Someone who is willing to work for a low wage, your typical unskilled worker for instance, then they are free to do so and a business is free to employ them, despite how much money they make.

Also, out of curiosity, how would the numbers work on a maximum wage? Would you say that no person can make x% more than their lowest paid employee or something along those lines?

Quote:As to your habits, frankly I don't care a jot. It was another who described you as a stoner, a term unknown to me. So are you?

Well, given my forum title is "Administoner" I'd say that's a safe bet

Capitalism is about maximizing profit for the organisation and wiping out the competitor if possible. Co-operation may exist in a cartel situation, where greedy capitalist exploiters decide it best to work together in their own common selfish interest. That is mutual interest among the exploiting class. Mutual interest doesn't stretch to the working and under classes, who simply have to get a living by either selling their labour or accepting whatever handout exists under the capitalist system. In the job scenario, the worker wants as much for his labour as he can get. The employer wants to hire as cheaply as he can so as to maximise his own and any shareholders' profit. It is a competition loaded in favour of the employer 99% of the time, the exception coming very rarely when labour is hard to come by.....rare as rocking-horse shit nowadays. And what is worse is that the workers are in competition against fellow workers for the work available! Work can take many forms, some being quite attractive, most being just a necessity and some being very unpleasant indeed. Whatever it is the man hires when he needs workers and the man fires when he no longer has the need for them. Capitalism is not worker-friendly.

Gangter/crony capitalism, call it what you like, any description that has the c word in it indicates the thirst for profit. That thirst inevitably leads to unfairness, exploitation, greed, dodgy dealings, corruption at the highest levels of business and government, obscene wealth in the hands of the few....and the third world.
I won't have capitalism, even diluted capitalism put forward as the best option for the human race.

Of course I would legislate a maximum wage, just as a minimum wage has been. That minimum wage in the UK is derisory and yet the so-called left-wing government that brought it in considers it a great achievement! I don't have a figure in mind, but it would be set so as to drastically reduce the massive difference in the pay packets of the ordinary workers and the M.D , Chief Execs etc.etc. A business isn't a business without the worker.

I'll tell you Void, one thing we can agree on.....god doesn't exist, in all probability!!