(August 9, 2017 at 12:58 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 9:11 am)rjh4 is back Wrote:

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These questions:

So, Thumpalumpacus, in your position what makes stealing or kicking someone in the teeth wrong? I mean I think it is wrong because the Bible tells us to treat others like we want to be treated. But without God, what is your naturalistic explanation for right and wrong? Is it just a result of chemical reactions going on in your brain?

If you don't want to go there...fine. Are you concerned that your answers may not logically lead to the conclusions you want?

While I agree that you cannot discuss/debate God into existence (He exists or he doesn't regardless of our discussion/debate), it will only be by discussion/debate that we can discuss the reasons why we take one position or the other and it is only by discussion/debate that the reasons can be critiqued.

I don't need a god fantasy, being, entity to give me, society or humanity morals. Those have developed as a consequence of humans living and existing in successful groups. People who never heard of the bible or the abrahamic god had/have morals. Your point is lacking any significance.

Not concerned, anything you have to say will have little to no relevance. It's just you spouting more unfounded fantasy beliefs. 

I know why you take your position, you need the fantasy delusion to be comfortable and content with your existence. What I don't understand is your need to justify it here or your need for me to consider your belief as valid. Could it be that it's not working as well as you'd like it to, not providing all of the comfort that you seem to need?

Funny...I have not been spouting much of anything on my position other than to merely tell you what it is. I have been asking about yours. If you are unwilling to talk about yours, that is fine.

(August 9, 2017 at 12:58 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 9:11 am)rjh4 is back Wrote:

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These questions:

So, Thumpalumpacus, in your position what makes stealing or kicking someone in the teeth wrong? I mean I think it is wrong because the Bible tells us to treat others like we want to be treated. But without God, what is your naturalistic explanation for right and wrong? Is it just a result of chemical reactions going on in your brain?

If you don't want to go there...fine. Are you concerned that your answers may not logically lead to the conclusions you want?

While I agree that you cannot discuss/debate God into existence (He exists or he doesn't regardless of our discussion/debate), it will only be by discussion/debate that we can discuss the reasons why we take one position or the other and it is only by discussion/debate that the reasons can be critiqued.

I don't need a god fantasy, being, entity to give me, society or humanity morals. Those have developed as a consequence of humans living and existing in successful groups. People who never heard of the bible or the abrahamic god had/have morals. Your point is lacking any significance.

Not concerned, anything you have to say will have little to no relevance. It's just you spouting more unfounded fantasy beliefs. 

I know why you take your position, you need the fantasy delusion to be comfortable and content with your existence. What I don't understand is your need to justify it here or your need for me to consider your belief as valid. Could it be that it's not working as well as you'd like it to, not providing all of the comfort that you seem to need?

Chemical engineer of 34 years working with PhD's. You made the claim of authority, time to put up or shut up. Give your credentials, evidence of your work, .........

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(August 9, 2017 at 1:04 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: Funny...I have not been spouting much of anything on my position other than to merely tell you what it is. I have been asking about yours. If you are unwilling to talk about yours, that is fine.

Nice dodge!

(August 9, 2017 at 1:04 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 12:58 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I don't need a god fantasy, being, entity to give me, society or humanity morals. Those have developed as a consequence of humans living and existing in successful groups. People who never heard of the bible or the abrahamic god had/have morals. Your point is lacking any significance.

Not concerned, anything you have to say will have little to no relevance. It's just you spouting more unfounded fantasy beliefs. 

I know why you take your position, you need the fantasy delusion to be comfortable and content with your existence. What I don't understand is your need to justify it here or your need for me to consider your belief as valid. Could it be that it's not working as well as you'd like it to, not providing all of the comfort that you seem to need?

Chemical engineer of 34 years working with PhD's. You made the claim of authority, time to put up or shut up. Give your credentials, evidence of your work, .........

Not necessary. Look at the context. Never claimed authority, only mentioned credential in order to demonstrate I would be able to understand an explanation of you.

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(August 9, 2017 at 1:04 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 12:58 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I don't need a god fantasy, being, entity to give me, society or humanity morals. Those have developed as a consequence of humans living and existing in successful groups. People who never heard of the bible or the abrahamic god had/have morals. Your point is lacking any significance.

Not concerned, anything you have to say will have little to no relevance. It's just you spouting more unfounded fantasy beliefs. 

I know why you take your position, you need the fantasy delusion to be comfortable and content with your existence. What I don't understand is your need to justify it here or your need for me to consider your belief as valid. Could it be that it's not working as well as you'd like it to, not providing all of the comfort that you seem to need?

Chemical engineer of 34 years working with PhD's. You made the claim of authority, time to put up or shut up. Give your credentials, evidence of your work, .........

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(August 9, 2017 at 1:04 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: Funny...I have not been spouting much of anything on my position other than to merely tell you what it is. I have been asking about yours. If you are unwilling to talk about yours, that is fine.

Nice dodge!

No dodge. If you want to ask me a specific question...ask.

(August 9, 2017 at 12:41 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 11:43 am)Brian37 Wrote: KNOCK IT OFF.

Evolution is the scientific explanation as to how life changes over long periods. DNA proves it.

Now sorry, but you do not get to shit on that just because you don't like it not needing your pet deity.

Don't talk to us about laws of logic while defending a book with bullshit fantastic claims that have no basis in science and especially after agreeing that the book is not a science textbook.

Do men pop out of dirt? NO!
Do women pop out of men's ribs? NO!
Do snakes talk? NO!
Do donkeys talk? NO!
Do bushes talk? NO!

And no, there is no such thing as invisible god sperm that magically without a second set of DNA knocks a girl up to give birth to himself in human form. There is no such thing as holy ghost sperm, or invisible god sperm. 

AND NO, if you were to in real life, murder someone like the death myth claims, the person dies and stays dead. 

So unless you have scientific proof that those claims are even remotely plausible and all your going to respond with is "poof" and "God did it", no I cannot take you seriously.

I also would not take you seriously if you claimed Apollo was real. FOR THE SAME FUCKING REASON.

That was then, this is now.

It was understandable humans worldwide in antiquity made those things up, because the didn't know any better. You are getting pissed because I refuse to give your pet claim any special treatment.

You lecturing us on logic is laughable.

Yet again: All totally irrelevant to the question of value judgements (right and wrong) from an evolutionary point of view.

Try again.

Hint: try talking about your own position as that is what I am asking about.

I get that starting with the presupposition that God doesn't exists, your arguments against the Bible make logical sense. Those things do, however, follow logically when you start with my presuppositions (God exists and the Bible is the Word of God) (at least I think they follow logically and nobody here has said otherwise).

I am trying to find out if your worldview is logically consistent internally. If not, it seems to me that it would be irrational to hold to that position.

So I am trying to use your presuppositions to argue that they lead to illogical conclusions. If you want to discredit my point of view, start with my presuppositions and show that they result in illogical conclusions.

So...beginning with your presuppositions, explain how value judgements (right and wrong) come into being and have any sort of objective meaning. Beginning with your presuppositions, explain how the laws of logic (intangible concepts) come into being. Let's see how it falls out.

And please don't go into other religions and their beliefs as it is irrelevant to our discussion. However, should you, after our discussion, give up your position and go to one of the other religion positions, I would be happy then to discuss those.

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(August 9, 2017 at 11:43 am)Brian37 Wrote: KNOCK IT OFF.

Evolution is the scientific explanation as to how life changes over long periods. DNA proves it.

Now sorry, but you do not get to shit on that just because you don't like it not needing your pet deity.

Don't talk to us about laws of logic while defending a book with bullshit fantastic claims that have no basis in science and especially after agreeing that the book is not a science textbook.

Do men pop out of dirt? NO!
Do women pop out of men's ribs? NO!
Do snakes talk? NO!
Do donkeys talk? NO!
Do bushes talk? NO!

And no, there is no such thing as invisible god sperm that magically without a second set of DNA knocks a girl up to give birth to himself in human form. There is no such thing as holy ghost sperm, or invisible god sperm. 

AND NO, if you were to in real life, murder someone like the death myth claims, the person dies and stays dead. 

So unless you have scientific proof that those claims are even remotely plausible and all your going to respond with is "poof" and "God did it", no I cannot take you seriously.

I also would not take you seriously if you claimed Apollo was real. FOR THE SAME FUCKING REASON.

That was then, this is now.

It was understandable humans worldwide in antiquity made those things up, because the didn't know any better. You are getting pissed because I refuse to give your pet claim any special treatment.

You lecturing us on logic is laughable.

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No it is not you idiot!

Value claims are human constructs and highly subjective from point of view. Evolution addresses survival from adaptation which includes BOTH cooperation and cruelty. 

EVOLUTION YOU TWIT, explains both the good and bad that happen in nature. It explains why a lion will kill it's prey, and even the offspring of rivals. Evolution explains how cockroaches breed far more efficiently than humans and have been around far longer. EVOLUTION explains how we even share DNA with bacteria and grass and whales and jellyfish.

You keep missing the fucking point that when it comes to our species evolution, it is still up to us what we do in interaction with each other.

Adenine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine EXPLAIN HOW life evolved over billions of years.

Your comic book was written in an age when nobody had any damned fucking clue what DNA was.

You do not get to blame us for what we were not around to write. merely because we point out the absurdity of that book.

Wrong again. Word like "good" and "bad" imply value. That is how those words are used and are understood.

To the extent that they are highly subjective they tend to be meaningless. If killing another human being extends the survival of the killer, how can it be viewed as "bad" from an evolutionary point of view. Isn't it "good" from the evolutionary point of view of the killer and "bad" from the evolutionary point of view of the victim? If so, you would be arguing that there is then no real meaning to "good" and "bad", i.e., they are merely relativistic terms that only have meaning from a particular point of view. Seems like an irrational position to me and contrary to the accepted meaning and use of the words.

To a lion "good" is when they reproduce. To a lion "good" is when they kill and eat. To a lion "good" is even when they kill rival's cubs. To a lioness, "bad" is when their cub is killed by a lion. 

"Good" and "bad" as far as humans use it in laypersons terms outside how evolutionary science uses the same words is completely different. 

This is the same stupid bullshit theists pull when using the word "theory".

No sorry, when evolution talks in scientific terms using "good" and "bad" it is referring to that individual in any species or even that species itself, strictly meaning "good" is when you get to the point of reproducing, and "bad" is when you don't reproduce.

You are trying to pull some old bullshit trying to claim "Without my pet deity, we'd all murder each other".

Without your deity murder would still happen in humans so? You are stupidly assuming or ignoring that even without your particular pet deity claim, even humans have learned to cooperate without violence. 

 I have been an atheist since the mid 90s. I have no violent felonies haven't even had a speeding ticket since 1999.

If your argument is that our species morality comes from your pet deity claim, sorry, not buying it. Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate, to use empathy or brutality is in our genes, not our labels.

Your personal pet deity does not explain human morality anymore than the Egyptian sun god Ra explains our species morality.

If you feel you need your pet deity to prevent you from murdering others, by all means keep it. But don't dare try to argue others need it because you like yours.

(August 9, 2017 at 1:07 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: No dodge. If you want to ask me a specific question...ask.

Of all of the god fantasy delusions out there why do you believe in this one (bible/abrahamic)? Why do you need me/us to give you some measure of validity to your belief? What actual evidence do you have that might lend some credence to the belief. (please don't say the bible, that's not evidence)

I have zero confidence in your chemical engineer claim. Is this another fantasy?

(August 9, 2017 at 1:09 pm)Brian37 Wrote: To a lion "good" is when they reproduce. To a lion "good" is when they kill and eat. To a lion "good" is even when they kill rival's cubs. To a lioness, "bad" is when their cub is killed by a lion. 

"Good" and "bad" as far as humans use it in laypersons terms outside how evolutionary science uses the same words is completely different. 

This is the same stupid bullshit theists pull when using the word "theory".

No sorry, when evolution talks in scientific terms using "good" and "bad" it is referring to that individual in any species or even that species itself, strictly meaning "good" is when you get to the point of reproducing, and "bad" is when you don't reproduce.

You are trying to pull some old bullshit trying to claim "Without my pet deity, we'd all murder each other".

Without your deity murder would still happen in humans so? You are stupidly assuming or ignoring that even without your particular pet deity claim, even humans have learned to cooperate without violence. 

 I have been an atheist since the mid 90s. I have no violent felonies haven't even had a speeding ticket since 1999.

If your argument is that our species morality comes from your pet deity claim, sorry, not buying it. Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate, to use empathy or brutality is in our genes, not our labels.

Your personal pet deity does not explain human morality anymore than the Egyptian sun god Ra explains our species morality.

If you feel you need your pet deity to prevent you from murdering others, by all means keep it. But don't dare try to argue others need it because you like yours.

So you agree that from an evolutionary standpoint, "good" and "bad" are relativistic? If relativistic it has little meaning in normal layperson conversation.

I never said that with God people wouldn't kill. Clearly that is not the case nor is it my position.

One of the issues that came up is incest. Is incest "good" or "bad" from a layperson standpoint and why? Whatever your answer, please provide some objective reason for saying so at least based on your presuppositions.

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(August 9, 2017 at 1:20 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(August 9, 2017 at 1:07 pm)rjh4 is back Wrote: No dodge. If you want to ask me a specific question...ask.

Of all of the god fantasy delusions out there why do you believe in this one (bible/abrahamic)? Why do you need me/us to give you some measure of validity to your belief? What actual evidence do you have that might lend some credence to the belief. (please don't say the bible, that's not evidence)

I have zero confidence in your chemical engineer claim. Is this another fantasy?

Assuming you are asking why I believe in the Biblical God: Because such a presupposition logically provide an explanation for things like knowledge, logic, and morals whereas other positions do not (they are internally consistent).

Second question answer: I don't. One of the things I come here for is to see what kind of arguments others might provide against my position. So far...none have been forthcoming that show my presuppositions lead to illogical conclusions.

Third question answer: The internal logical consistency of the position as compared to other positions.

If you don't believe I have a Chemical Engineering degree... oh well. Similarly, I have zero confidence that you can explain how life can come from non-live via naturalistic organic chemistry mechanisms. Is this your fantasy?

You having a chemical engineering degree is actually far more believable than your absurd invisible sky-daddy shit.  There might even be evidence of such a degree.  Your fucking god?  Not so much.

(August 9, 2017 at 2:10 pm)Minimalist Wrote: You having a chemical engineering degree is actually far more believable than your absurd invisible sky-daddy shit.  There might even be evidence of such a degree.  Your fucking god?  Not so much.

When are you going to say something of substance?

When are you going to stop talking about your absurd god shit?

No gods, laddie.  You are on your own on this planet.

(August 9, 2017 at 2:20 pm)Minimalist Wrote: When are you going to stop talking about your absurd god shit?

No gods, laddie.  You are on your own on this planet.

I'm would be happy not to talk about God here. People keep asking me about my beliefs and why I believe what I do. I think it would be rude for me not to respond.

I would much rather talk about what others believe and how those beliefs provide the preconditions for knowledge, logic, and morality and see where it takes us. Nobody wants to play.