(August 29, 2017 at 2:51 pm)J a c k Wrote:

(August 29, 2017 at 2:33 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: You people are retards and illiterates. Smarten up!

Lol

How catholic is CatholicDefender?
/thread

How troll is troll?

(August 29, 2017 at 2:03 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: ^ Pretty sure Pius XII was worried about not being killed or turned into a lampshade/bar of soap as well as stopping Catholics from being persecuted.

So he instead just criticized the regime and its policies in veiled ways.

Surely an Almighty God would have protected his Earthly Vicar of Christ.

O ye of little faith!

I have a serious question.

What would have happened to Pius XII surrounded by fascist Italy (and Nazis by 1943) if he actually condemned Adolf Hitler and the Nazis?

If I had to guess probably something similar to what happened to the Pope when Napoleon was around.

Otto Skorzeny or someone of that ilk would have probably whisked him away from the Vatican and tortured him until he recanted.

Also, even if there is some controversy over Pius' involvement we must never forget the Roman Catholic victims of the Holocaust!

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Bar...ation_Camp

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV9H7aWgPv8

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSsmDD8vVU

On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuëhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."
(from Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell )
      "During Hitler's fiftieth birthday celebration (1939), special votive masses were held in every German church "to implore God's blessing upon Fuhrer and people," and the Bishop of Mainz called upon Catholics in his diocese to pray specifically for "the Fuhrer and Chancellor, the inspirer, enlarger and protector of the Reich." The Pope did not fail to send his congratulations

(August 29, 2017 at 9:38 pm)CatholicDefender Wrote: I have a serious question.

What would have happened to Pius XII surrounded by fascist Italy (and Nazis by 1943) if he actually condemned Adolf Hitler and the Nazis?

If I had to guess probably something similar to what happened to the Pope when Napoleon was around.

Otto Skorzeny or someone of that ilk would have probably whisked him away from the Vatican and tortured him until he recanted.

Also, even if there is some controversy over Pius' involvement we must never forget the Roman Catholic victims of the Holocaust!

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Bar...ation_Camp

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV9H7aWgPv8

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSsmDD8vVU

When has ANY European monarch/ruler/dictator/whatever challenged the Pope? Man, you are dumber than a bag of dicks. OK, the Italian police finally raided a Cardinal's office in the Vatican awhile back, after they have known since the 1800's that the Vatican has been laundering money. FFS, the RCC IS the MAFIA, and both of those criminal enterprises should be extirpated.

How The Church helped start the holocaust

http://www.catholicarrogance.org/Catholi...caust.html

---

by telephone to the New York Times.
Fulda, Germany, Dec. 6 – The (annual) conference of German Catholic Bishops assembled in Fulda has recommended the introduction of a special "war prayer" which is to be read at the beginning and end of all divine services.
    The prayer implores Providence to bless German arms with victory and grant protection to the lives and health of all soldiers.  The Bishops further instructed Catholic clergy to keep and remember in a special Sunday sermon at least once a month German soldiers "on land, on sea and in the air."
    The German Catholic clergy, while strongly objecting to certain aspects of NAZI racial policy, has always taken care to emphasize the duty of every Catholic to his country as loyal Germans in the present war


http://www.catholicarrogance.org/+Artwor...ytimes.jpg

---

Tons of pictures of Nazi's and Catholics being buddy buddy with Hitler

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

^ those are all lies. You are just making it up.

Why would the Cardinals congratulate Hitler on his birthday yet at the same time say nothing as Priests were sent to Dachau, and filthy immoral Godless Lebensborn programs were starting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn

In his chapter on the beginning of the tribulations for the Jews of Rome, John Cornwell explains that the trucks carting the Jews off to their deaths were driven right past St. Peter's square, so that the Roman Catholic soldiers on them could see the famous center of Catholicism.  He also shows that contrary to the figment that Pope Pius XII had to fear NAZI retribution against him and his church, the German occupiers themselves didn't want to move against the Jews of Rome, because these German occupiers feared the reaction of the Italian Catholic population, which was very sympathetic to the Jews.  Pope Pius refused to intervene on behalf of the Jews of Rome even though the leadership of the German occupation itself was urging him to protest publicly and to register his objections with Berlin.

Instead, five days later this entry appears in the meticulously kept log at Auschwitz:  "Transport, Jews from Rome.

---

No defender your the one who peddles lies and denials . It's a fact he congratulated Hitler on his birthday .

---

Fine. The Pope may have been terrible as many Popes throughout history have been.

Curiously enough though, many Catholics, including much of the Italian population (including Mussolinni himself) seems to resist the Holocaust.

Unlike Germany, the Italians seemed sympathetic to their Jews: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opini...story.html

I find it odd that Pius XII had about 14 years from the end of world war 2 until his death to clarify what he did/did not do but he did little to nothing.

Still if Pius was a scoundrel why didn't he keep a lid on this guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27F...rld_War_II

For your viewing pleasure.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_Au..._positions

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_von..._to_Nazism

3.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany#Suppression_of_Catholic_press

(August 29, 2017 at 2:19 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 29, 2017 at 2:18 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yep and Stalin was an atheist but unlike our theist friend here, I won't deny it. But in accepting he was, does not mean I value monsters like him, it just means denying that fact would be delusional.

It simply bothers theists that an atheist can do good and be good. They need to feel entitled as if they own a patent on goodness. But to be fair, all religions have followers that feel this way.

Interestingly, Stalin is the product of a seminary. He might be an atheist, but who knows how much of his craft he learned from the church.

Heinrich himmler was also no Christian and certainly no catholic.   But he designed much of the pomp and ceremonies of his SS to imitate catholic rites and ceremonies, because he admired how well those were designed to encourage blind obedience against own better judgement.

Ironically enough Stalin is one of the very few real life examples of the christian stereotype of "angry at god" atheists. Oh and he should really be a poster boy for christian reconversion, given his rapid reembracing of Russian orthodoxy in 1941 when he thought Russia was doomed.

Played out almost exactly like Kevin Sorbo's deathbed conversion in God's not dead.