An ontological argument so thoroughly butchered that we can't even trust the meanings of the -words-.........

Well fuck me, I'm convinced.  Which way is east?

(no one disputes that the concept of god exists, you don't exactly need an argument to establish that)

(September 12, 2017 at 2:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 11, 2017 at 12:21 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Yes.

If who you are is objective knowledge to goodness, then it's not relative.

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(September 11, 2017 at 1:53 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Bold mine.  I certainly don't accept this premise.  I could feel a deep, personal connection to unicorns or Santa, but that doesn't mean those things necessarily exist in reality.   It only means that they exist, in concept, in my mind.  Just like your god.

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What's disputable is your assumption that some intangible value or idea that you've labeled "ultimate goodness" exists in the first place.  You have to demonstrate that it's an actual thing before you can draw any truthful conclusions from an argument that uses it in its premises.

What you are using the word "connection" as it is not what I meant. Words have different meanings in different contexts. And that is not my meaning.

Um...care to clarify your intended meaning of the word "connection" then?  Since it's part of your argument and all.

(September 12, 2017 at 6:54 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 2:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote: If who you are is objective knowledge to goodness, then it's not relative.

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What you are using the word "connection" as it is not what I meant. Words have different meanings in different contexts. And that is not my meaning.

Um...care to clarify your intended meaning of the word "connection" then?  Since it's part of your argument and all.

A mystic living link.

"Very short version of the long argument"

If any Gods were real, their existence wouldn't need to be argued over by anybody.
The. argument. itself. is. proof. that. God. doesn't. exist.

(September 12, 2017 at 7:58 am)ignoramus Wrote: "Very short version of the long argument"

If any Gods were real, their existence wouldn't need to be argued over by anybody.

This is true, God doesn't to be argued for. But if there is a book from him, it would be expected to have decisive proofs that remind of him never the less, and increase certainty upon certainty with those who reminders and sound arguments.

And among those arguments is how can you doubt while it is God that is the witness to all things.

And among those arguments is how can you doubt while God creates everything in truth, and what can be that truth but vision from him, and he being the light of the heavens and the earth himself.

And among those arguments is how can creation exist from other than God as things would be in a state of corruption without a perfect mind defining and creating things in truth.

And among those arguments is that what else upholds every soul by what is has earned.

And among those arguments is who descends blessings and tranquility from the higher realities, down to us, but God.

And among those arguments is the sacredness of compassion and love, to the extent God says "there is not but a thing but with us are it's treasures".

And among those arguments is that God is the value origin and source by which we see value, and he is the value of all value, the light of all light.

And among those arguments is that guidance of God is the guidance and what else can be said to be the guidance and what is a greater evil than following desires over that of guidance from God?

And among those arguments is through his name that we are taught, taught through the pen what we knew not.

And among those arguments is does man really think no one sees him?

No one's watching you pee, Mystic.

(September 12, 2017 at 7:40 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 6:54 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Um...care to clarify your intended meaning of the word "connection" then?  Since it's part of your argument and all.

A mystic living link.

That is not a definition of the word, "connection."  If you can find that in a dictionary for me I'll eat my shoes, lol.  It's simply another supernatural assertion heaped on top of the one you've already put forward without evidence.

(September 12, 2017 at 9:29 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 7:40 am)MysticKnight Wrote: A mystic living link.

That is not a definition of the word, "connection."  If you can find that in a dictionary for me I'll eat my shoes, lol.  It's simply another supernatural assertion heaped on top of the one you've already put forward without evidence.

A living link then.

(September 12, 2017 at 8:11 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 12, 2017 at 7:58 am)ignoramus Wrote: "Very short version of the long argument"

If any Gods were real, their existence wouldn't need to be argued over by anybody.

This is true, God doesn't to be argued for. But if there is a book from him, it would be expected to have decisive proofs that remind of him never the less, and increase certainty upon certainty with those who reminders and sound arguments.

And among those arguments is how can you doubt while it is God that is the witness to all things.

And among those arguments is how can you doubt while God creates everything in truth, and what can be that truth but vision from him, and he being the light of the heavens and the earth himself.

And among those arguments is how can creation exist from other than God as things would be in a state of corruption without a perfect mind defining and creating things in truth.

And among those arguments is that what else upholds every soul by what is has earned.

And among those arguments is who descends blessings and tranquility from the higher realities, down to us, but God.

And among those arguments is the sacredness of compassion and love, to the extent God says "there is not but a thing but with us are it's treasures".

And among those arguments is that God is the value origin and source by which we see value, and he is the value of all value, the light of all light.

And among those arguments is that guidance of God is the guidance and what else can be said to be the guidance and what is a greater evil than following desires over that of guidance from God?

And among those arguments is through his name that we are taught, taught through the pen what we knew not.

And among those arguments is does man really think no one sees him?

Shoot..the walls of text are back.
The universe has a beginning and an end. Either if you believe in religion, or don't.

What we are in now is called "the Vacuum"; that is "space". Well; it's not a perfect vacuum, but the closest to one.
It had a beginning: that's the big bang.
It has an end: that's the day you, me and your posts will be a part of the void. Don't ask me; your grandparents are probably there already.

i.e death.

Unless if you believe in ghosts....

Anyways; before this vacuum comes into existence; i.e before the big bang, nobody -no matter how smart they are; not even Ali- know what was there. Because the word "what was" don't even mean anything before the bang.

"Existence" is an aftermath of this universe; before it we lose all meaning, no matter how smart you were; you will never know.'

So it becomes separate ways: some will believe a God did exist outside space and time, and gave creation to the universe, made the word "exist" have a meaning.
Or, some will believe that no God is there.

So; what does connection really mean before the vacuum comes into place?

(September 12, 2017 at 8:11 am)MysticKnight Wrote: And among those arguments is does man really think no one sees him?

I am strongly of the opinion that humans have never seen a real god, but can see plenty of them in their imaginations.

I strongly believe, MK, that your god lives only in your mind and in the minds of believers, and has no connection whatsoever to the origins of the universe.