(October 3, 2017 at 12:20 am)Khemikal Wrote: Yes, I think that's one of the things you lack.  I also think that you lack the ability to form a consistent and sensible worldview in regards to this subject, and would probably benefit from reading more about hedonism as a position and a tradition.

One last thing here.  This is an important revelation to my worldview/theory.  Since I have established that the only way to have real good value in our lives is through our positive emotions just as how the only way for a person to have real red in his life is through visualizing red, then the only way to have real good value in your life is through wanting and liking.  Our positive emotions are an objective form of wanting and liking.  There is no subjective form of wanting and liking just as how there is no subjective form of sight. A blind person cannot have a subjective form of sight that would allow him to visualize colors.  In other words, there is only one way to visualize colors which would be through sight just as how there is only one way to truly see the good values in our lives which would be through our positive emotions.

Here is a study that shows you that our positive emotions are an objective form of wanting and liking:

Quote: Wrote:We have found a special hedonic hotspot that is crucial for reward 'liking' and 'wanting' (and codes reward learning too). The opioid hedonic hotspot is shown in red above. It works together with another hedonic hotspot in the more famous nucleus accumbens to generate pleasure 'liking'.
‘Liking’ and ‘wanting’ food rewards: Brain substrates and roles in eating disorders
Kent C. Berridge 2009 Mar 29.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717031/

Now, if you were a criminal and you have only acknowledged and believed the idea that it was a good thing for you to help others rather than harm others, but this did not matter to you at all one bit, then you would not be seeing that as a good thing. The only way to truly see that as being a good thing would be if you had a change of heart. That is, if it mattered to you. But the only way something can matter to you is if you want it or like it. Wanting and liking makes things matter to us in good ways.

There can also be a negative form of wanting that makes things matter to us in bad ways such as wanting to get back at someone or give up on life. The objective form of negative wanting would be our negative emotions. There is also unwanting and disliking and the objective form of them would also be our negative emotions. They also make things matter to us in bad ways. This means that, without emotions, nothing can truly matter to us since there is no way something can subjectively matter to us.

We can't have empathy without emotions since empathy would be things where helping others matters to you. If there was a suffering loved one in your life, you were feeling nothing but joyful from a certain situation such as getting a new movie, and you had the thought that this individual suffering was something horrible, then this means that the suffering of this individual could be nothing truly bad from your perspective. It would not matter to you at all.

Instead, it would be getting that new movie which would be the only good value in your life right now. However, once that feeling of joy settles down and you were to then feel a negative emotion such as sadness or misery due to the suffering of that loved one, then you would now be aware of how horrible his/her suffering really is since it would now be something truly horrible from your perspective. The same rule applies to feeling negative emotions and thinking your life is still good and beautiful. My example of this one was in regards to famous and genius miserable artists.

In addition, our positive and negative emotions are objectively positive and negative experiences and they are objective emotions which also means that there can be no subjective positive and negative experience and there can be no subjective emotions either. Without those functioning biochemicals I've mentioned before, then you are like the blind person who cannot have any subjective form of sight. That is, you cannot have a form of sight through your thinking and beliefs alone. Lastly, our emotions are also value judgments. Positive emotions are the objectively good value judgments and our negative emotions are the objectively bad value judgments. This means that there can also be no subjective value judgments either.

It's only because there are so mercifully few of you that the asylums aren't overflowing.

(October 3, 2017 at 2:12 am)Cyberman Wrote:

(October 2, 2017 at 8:00 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: I am not the only one who has this worldview.  There are others out there like me.  So, it would be me, along with them, who are not the deluded ones.  We are the few and proud.

At least you've found a way to feel superior to others, that's the main thing. Good for you.

Let's make it official.  Transcended Dimensions, for your deep knowledge of truth, and your spiritual superiority in all regards, we hereby bequeath you with a well deserved:

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(October 3, 2017 at 11:12 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: In addition, our positive and negative emotions are objectively positive and negative experiences

It's like you don't have access to a dictionary.

(October 3, 2017 at 2:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 2:12 am)Cyberman Wrote: At least you've found a way to feel superior to others, that's the main thing. Good for you.

Let's make it official.  Transcended Dimensions, for your deep knowledge of truth, and your spiritual superiority in all regards, we hereby bequeath you with a well deserved:

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(October 3, 2017 at 11:12 am)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: In addition, our positive and negative emotions are objectively positive and negative experiences

It's like you don't have access to a dictionary.

We, or at least, I, do not think that I am special.  I think it is the power of the light which is something truly powerful, beautiful, and special that many people are blind to and have not yet been awakened to.  Lastly, I will go ahead and reword that whole paragraph to this then:

Quote:In addition, our positive and negative emotions are objectively positive and negative and they are objective emotions which also means that there can be no subjective positive and negative experience and there can be no subjective emotions either. Without those functioning biochemicals I've mentioned before, then you are like the blind person who cannot have any subjective form of sight. That is, you cannot have a form of sight through your thinking and beliefs alone. Lastly, our emotions are also value judgments. Positive emotions are the objectively good value judgments and our negative emotions are the objectively bad value judgments. This means that there can also be no subjective value judgments either.

What the fuck difference does it make if emotions are subjective or objective? We've been experiencing them our entire lives, we understand how to change them, how to lose control of them by various means, how to manipulate them by other means, how to change them in an instant, and how the exact same situation can affect two people entirely differently on an emotional level (which would be considered subjective, at least in the underlying cause that triggers the emotional effect).

You should go check out the thread on objective morality. If you use the axiom of well-being, those things that promote and diminish well-being are objective but there is still a lot that has to be decided subjectively as far as what is worse or better in a given situation where consensus cannot be achieved. Maybe then whatever it is you're talking about here will make an ounce of sense or have some semblance of relevance.

(October 3, 2017 at 4:23 pm)Astonished Wrote: What the fuck difference does it make if emotions are subjective or objective? We've been experiencing them our entire lives, we understand how to change them, how to lose control of them by various means, how to manipulate them by other means, how to change them in an instant, and how the exact same situation can affect two people entirely differently on an emotional level (which would be considered subjective, at least in the underlying cause that triggers the emotional effect).

You should go check out the thread on objective morality. If you use the axiom of well-being, those things that promote and diminish well-being are objective but there is still a lot that has to be decided subjectively as far as what is worse or better in a given situation where consensus cannot be achieved. Maybe then whatever it is you're talking about here will make an ounce of sense or have some semblance of relevance.

Maybe this will make more sense to you and clear some confusion up:

Other Person's Response: How can you not see the good and bad value of things in this life independent of those euphoric and dysphoric states?

My Reply: Because it's as though there can be no other "good" or "bad" message to my brain.  It would, again, be no different than a blind person who is not getting the visual signal to his brain that would allow him to visualize colors.  This has been my own lifelong personal experience and I am just sharing it to you and others.  I do not ever recall there being a single moment in my life where I truly saw good or bad value independent of my euphoria and dysphoria.

Other Person's Response: But what if you were feeling nothing but a positive emotion and I called you the worst names, made fun of you, your worldview, and did all sorts of mean and cruel things to you?

My Reply: As long as I am not feeling any negative emotion from that, then, as far as I'm concerned, everything is all good in my life. There would be no "bad" message to my brain.

Other Person's Response: Let me try one last time. If you were feeling nothing but a positive emotion, then would the idea that you would undergo the worst possible torment forever in hell bother you?

My Reply: It still wouldn't. But I would definitely make that choice to do all I can to avoid that hell, nonetheless. The same idea would apply if I was in a completely miserable state and I could do something right then and there to obtain the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams. None of that would have any real good value in my life during that miserable moment. Nonetheless, I would still definitely make the choice to obtain that blissful afterlife just from knowing that I would live the greatest life of my dreams.

That doesn't answer my question. What the fuck difference does it make if emotions are subjective or objective? The result is the same, and you're not taking into account that emotional reactions to the exact same stimuli can change, in no time at all, so you're never going to get a consistent response to the questions you raise.

Also, why are you raising the subject of hell now if you claim to believe there's no god? You may technically be an atheist but you sound like some new-age woo-crap believer. Why introduce further irrelevancies when you've already failed to answer the question I asked?

BTW, ask the Vulcans about knowing the difference between good and bad independent of emotion.

(October 3, 2017 at 4:36 pm)Astonished Wrote: That doesn't answer my question. What the fuck difference does it make if emotions are subjective or objective? The result is the same, and you're not taking into account that emotional reactions to the exact same stimuli can change, in no time at all, so you're never going to get a consistent response to the questions you raise.

Also, why are you raising the subject of hell now if you claim to believe there's no god? You may technically be an atheist but you sound like some new-age woo-crap believer. Why introduce further irrelevancies when you've already failed to answer the question I asked?

BTW, ask the Vulcans about knowing the difference between good and bad independent of emotion.

I just brought up the concept of heaven and hell as a pretend scenario to get my whole point across.  Also, why would you consider me a new age woo believer?  As for your question, never mind then.  I think I might have failed at this one.

(October 3, 2017 at 3:15 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: We, or at least, I, do not think that I am special.  I think it is the power of the light which is something truly powerful, beautiful, and special that many people are blind to and have not yet been awakened to.

Funny thing about this light of yours. It's blinding you to the fact that everyone else can see perfectly fine without it; and that just because you think shining it in our eyes may be beneficial to our health, it doesn't give you the right to keep doing it or judge us as ignorant when we ask you to stop.

You're just another religious nut with a self-aggrandising agenda.

(October 3, 2017 at 5:04 pm)Cyberman Wrote:

(October 3, 2017 at 3:15 pm)Transcended Dimensions Wrote: We, or at least, I, do not think that I am special.  I think it is the power of the light which is something truly powerful, beautiful, and special that many people are blind to and have not yet been awakened to.

Funny thing about this light of yours. It's blinding you to the fact that everyone else can see perfectly fine without it; and that just because you think shining it in our eyes may be beneficial to our health, it doesn't give you the right to keep doing it or judge us as ignorant when we ask you to stop.

You're just another religious nut with a self-aggrandising agenda.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at.