For fun and profit. Emphasis on the latter.

I just don't understand why someone would make up the Cu Chulainn character. Firstly, there are all the fulfilled prophecies to consider. From the Brug na Boinde to the Tain bo Cuailgne, Cu Chulainn fulfills the prophecy given by Cathbad.

The writers also included embarrassing details, such as the fact that he was an absentee father who killed his son, believing him to be an intruder, because he refused to reveal his name and could not have recognized him any other way. The writers also included the fact that Cu Chulainn was known to take the wives of other men without shame or secrecy.

We have testimony that after his death, he appeared before St. Patrick and King Leogaire to help Patrick convert the King to christianity by warning him of the torments of hell.

For all of these reasons I can't help but believe that Cu Chulainn was a military leader that defended the herds of his people against the armies of the Queen of Connacht. The magic spears and breaking of geise were probably later inventions to console his followers after his death.

Where'd Dave4slumps go?? I'm awaiting his responses with anxious anticipation.

(August 7, 2011 at 4:11 am)Joe Bloe Wrote:

(August 6, 2011 at 9:41 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: With all due respect to everyone on this site, why would any of this be made up???

Cash, power and control:

Ask the leaders of the Mormons, the Scientologists and the John Frum cultists on Tanna Island.

Christian leaders - much the same.

Like there was a lot of money and power to be gained from the poor of those days. What kind of power over the poor would have been of use back then, surely you guys are smarter than that,well maybe not. Paul worked as a tent maker during his ministry, he gave up wealth to be a preacher and a tent maker, how does that fit with your theory. My pastor gave up a job as a nuclear engineer to become a pastor, this holds true for many men down through time. Your theory holds no water, check your bucket it has many holes.

You believe that Paul did these things. Why is that?

(August 6, 2011 at 9:43 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: I thought you were mabus for a second, and I got all excited.

And then you weren't

Why: power. It's a nice thing to have, but you being poor probably don't understand it

I get the "Jesus was an apocalyptic who was crucified for sedition and his followers made up a story" argument. I of course think there are several flaws with the argument, but I can see the basic logic of it. I don't however see "power" as a possible motive here. This was not a lucrative money-making scheme either.

Considering the evidence it appears that the early followers of Christ actually lost livelihoods and social standing. Their particular ancient culture was honor/shame based, and being a Christian was shameful to both Greeks and Jews. So the only thing being a Christian got you was kicked out.

As for the disciples themselves, they didn't become the heads of a lucrative empire, most of them actually passed up the opportunity to be well respected teachers in their community in favor of a life on the road. And then there's the whole "getting killed" part. James, John, Andrew, Peter, and Matthew seemed to have a fairly stable livelihood, and everyone of them except Matthew already had good standing in the community. The rest of the disciples we don't know about, but the main figures in the early church were most likely stable members of a community and James and John were probably from a well connected family (the "beloved" disciple's family was connected to the high priest, however you choose to interpret that phrase).

Everything we know about the early church tells us that these people had nothing to gain by their profession of faith. It wasn't until Constantine that Christianity had any benefits in terms of power, money, or social standing. I can see that some people think they were deluded or crazy, but they were not power-players. Maybe there's some argument to the contrary that makes more sense, but I haven't heard it. If you or anyone else have any more insight into this position I do value a chance to understand another position through conversation. Thanks for your thoughts friends!

(August 8, 2011 at 3:33 pm)coffeeveritas Wrote: Everything we believe about the early church tells us.....

(editing mine and bolded)