(October 13, 2017 at 11:59 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 10:09 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: I guess Pauls experience was a metaphor too then huh?

My money is on seizure.  

Probably temporal lobe epilepsy.  Check out the various phenomena listed in the section "simple partial seizures."

(October 14, 2017 at 12:13 am)Astreja Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:59 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: My money is on seizure.  

Probably temporal lobe epilepsy.  Check out the various phenomena listed in the section "simple partial seizures."

Yep.

Now couple an experience like that with a demonstrated tendency toward religious fanaticism -- assuming, of course, that 'Paul' can be taken at his word regarding his background and his activities prior to the conversion event.

Nothing miraculous to be seen, and certainly nothing suggesting a foreshadowing of 20th Century physics. 

Of course, we're dealing with another religious fanatic here, so I don't expect anything as mundane as a reasonable explanation for anything to persuade him. The Huggys of the world don't seem to find reality to be very interesting.

It wasn't seizure or metaphor.  It's fiction...derivative fiction, at that. The author appears to have borrowed heavily from greek drama.

(October 13, 2017 at 11:01 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 4:41 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Well... The God-character can say a lot of things, but...

God isn't some character in a novel, He is real and He can only tell what is true.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:Do you believe God is all-knowing and all-powerfull and created the universe/world we live in? If you don't , than this argument of mine can be discarded. But if you do, than everything we do and choose and everything being the way it is, is because he pre-chose what we would do and believe and choose.

God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, the last meaning God has saw what each of us choose to do with our lives, none of the three or a combination of them means He controls our eternal destination. If you believe what you posted above then you need to bring some proof of preordination, the Bible speaks of choice.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:=> Me not believing in God would be what God created me to do.

How so, where's your proof God planned His creation to be one way only, the scriptures do not say that. Why would God who loves all mankind create some to go to hell, you make no sense whatsoever.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:If God has an infinite ways of creating the world (all-powerful) and knows how every one of these he chooses to create would turn out (all-knowing) then by picking the one he creates actively predetermines my own choices. He could have created a universe in which everyone would come to believe in him. He then, hypothetically, chose not to do that but to create a universe in which you do believe in him and I don't. Likewise, your belief in him would be predetermined, even though you perhaps see it as your own choice. If there is an all-powerfull, all-knowing entity that sets up the system to it's own desires, it can hardly complain the components don't act in the way it wanted them to.

 This is a tired old argument that holds no water because it is completely flawed. God created the human race with choice, He wants us to come to Him in love. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and being all these things and determining the total outcome of mankind then why would He even bother, it cost Him his Son through the suffering of all sin, God wouldn't have done this when all He had to do is destroy His creation. you make no sense in your argument and it has no bases at all.

GC

You are saying things that are inherently incombinable. And that's the entire point. It's like you are some character from 1984 trying to believe two opposite things at once. Or like you are saying something has all the proporties of a square and then say it's a circle because of all of those properties.
The bible can talk about free choice all it wants. You can claim it would be silly for him to bother with an experiment he would know the outcome for, but that is what omniscience entails.

It boils down to this:
1) Omniscience => Knowing how any one of an infinite ways to create his creation would turn out for every individual ever in it.
2) Omnipotence => Being able to choose any one of those infinite ways, including the best one in which everyone would come to him.
3) The act of creation => Actively chosing whatever would happen and be chosen within a creation he has total control over due to "1" & "2"

This is a square, kid. You want to explain to me where my reasoning is wrong and how it makes the circle of 'free choice'? Protip: you have to point out where its not logical, not where 'scripture says so'.


P.S. Don't twist the burden of proof. I don't need to prove God is a made-up character. If you claim he is real, you prove it.

(October 13, 2017 at 11:08 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 8:57 am)Astreja Wrote: If worshipping the creator of hell is the only other choice, then my morality demands that I choose hell.

I don't think that either of those things are real, though, so I'm not worried about it.



You need to get out more, GC.  Christianity has always been about money and power.  Look around you.


*Was* one in Asgard. I was wondering about that extra-shiny thing in my bowl of semi-precious stones, and why there's suddenly a raccoon in the neighbourhood.  

 I didn't even read your response, we've been through this enough and I'm tired of your willful spite on this subject.

GC

Is that directed at me?

Anywhoo I'm not spiteful, just pointing out that all the supernatural characters in theologies are mythical to me.
Talking about them as though they exist has the same impact as trying to convince me of how Harry Potter wore his briefs.
Its talking about fiction.

Until you can actually come up with something that has some substance that will continue to be my opinion.

Oh and I don't care, atheism is not a big part of my life. It just happens to be how it is.
The same way I live in England, its just one of those things.

(October 13, 2017 at 11:10 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:06 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Ok, I'll skip to the punchline. You don't worship a god; you worship a book. And not even one worthy of worship.

 I worship the God who gave us His word so that we could have a spiritual relationship with Him, the book is all about how to enter that relationship and keep the relationship healthy.

GC

The biblical God is Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies.  Gentiles were on his shit list.

(October 14, 2017 at 7:58 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:10 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  I worship the God who gave us His word so that we could have a spiritual relationship with Him, the book is all about how to enter that relationship and keep the relationship healthy.

GC

The biblical God is Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies.  Gentiles were on his shit list.

Ruth was a gentile, she was the great grandmother of David, not to mention there is a whole book of the Bible named after her...

(October 13, 2017 at 10:40 pm)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 4:28 am)Industrial Lad Wrote: But why do people deserve to be punished for believing in what isn't proven? What's so criminal about that?
Doesn't punishing people with hell if they don't believe put the onus on god to provide proof?
At least if he is a moral being? To say nothing of being the most moral being.

Evolutionist believe it's criminal to reject evolutionary science, believe me I've heard it many times on this site.

God says that one can look to nature and see that He exists. He gave His Son to redeem mankind. 
Man brought sin into this world and only because God loves us so much did He give us a way out of sin. Man is the guilty party, we continue to sin every day defying what God did for us. He didn't have to it wasn't a requirement that He save a world and it's people from themselves, love of His creation is part of our saving grace. God created a perfect world and mankind has ruined it with sin and so the burden should be on us, however God took it on Himself to bring about a way for man to escape what he did.

GC

I don't think people should be punished for not believing in Evolution. As far as proof of god in nature, what would that be? A teeny tiny inscription in DNA molecules that says "I made this-god?" Saying god created it because it exists is not an argument.

As far as sin and hell goes, even if you ignore all the atheists (which isn't fair because there's no proof) what about people who grew up in places where Christianity is not the main religion? As far as they know they're doing right and may even be forced to participate in their religion. Do they really deserve to go to hell? God created all those people knowing he would send them to hell.

Now if Christian god gave the world real proof he exists, by that I mean proving it to everybody, from the beginning to now, there would be no atheists and no other religions. This should be well within his power

Again god has refused to give proof and I don't get why this is if he actually exists. I don't believe he does. It's not reasonable to expect people to believe in something when you haven't provided proof, and it's not moral to punish them when they don't believe.

(October 14, 2017 at 12:00 am)KevinM1 Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:10 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  I worship the God who gave us His word so that we could have a spiritual relationship with Him, the book is all about how to enter that relationship and keep the relationship healthy.

GC

Yeah, I'm just not ready for that kind of commitment right now, so I'm gonna swipe left....

 When will you be ready?

GC

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(October 14, 2017 at 12:08 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 10:40 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Evolutionist believe it's criminal to reject evolutionary science, believe me I've heard it many times on this site.

God says that one can look to nature and see that He exists. He gave His Son to redeem mankind. 
Man brought sin into this world and only because God loves us so much did He give us a way out of sin. Man is the guilty party, we continue to sin every day defying what God did for us. He didn't have to it wasn't a requirement that He save a world and it's people from themselves, love of His creation is part of our saving grace. God created a perfect world and mankind has ruined it with sin and so the burden should be on us, however God took it on Himself to bring about a way for man to escape what he did.

GC

Pretty sure your little god invented sin by defining right and wrong behaviors.

 Sin has to be committed, it's not just hanging around. God doesn't define sin, sin is action contrary to who God is, this was so before creation.

GC

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(October 14, 2017 at 2:38 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:01 pm)Godscreated Wrote: God isn't some character in a novel, He is real and He can only tell what is true.


God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, the last meaning God has saw what each of us choose to do with our lives, none of the three or a combination of them means He controls our eternal destination. If you believe what you posted above then you need to bring some proof of preordination, the Bible speaks of choice.


How so, where's your proof God planned His creation to be one way only, the scriptures do not say that. Why would God who loves all mankind create some to go to hell, you make no sense whatsoever.


 This is a tired old argument that holds no water because it is completely flawed. God created the human race with choice, He wants us to come to Him in love. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent and being all these things and determining the total outcome of mankind then why would He even bother, it cost Him his Son through the suffering of all sin, God wouldn't have done this when all He had to do is destroy His creation. you make no sense in your argument and it has no bases at all.

GC

You are saying things that are inherently incombinable. And that's the entire point. It's like you are some character from 1984 trying to believe two opposite things at once. Or like you are saying something has all the proporties of a square and then say it's a circle because of all of those properties.
The bible can talk about free choice all it wants. You can claim it would be silly for him to bother with an experiment he would know the outcome for, but that is what omniscience entails.

You are trying to turn the argument back on me with what I stated, want work. I haven't said anything about believing opposites and I haven't called something one thing and then said it was something else. You are having trouble understanding God because you do not know Him.

 

Mr. Obvious Wrote:It boils down to this:
1) Omniscience => Knowing how any one of an infinite ways to create his creation would turn out for every individual ever in it.

Wrong, omniscience means God knows all things as in knowing how to create the perfect universe. You are confusing omniscience with omnipresence.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:2) Omnipotence => Being able to choose any one of those infinite ways, including the best one in which everyone would come to him.

You are defining these things to fit your argument, to prove your point you have use your argument against who God is. You can't just make this stuff up and expect a learned Christian to swallow this stuff.
Omnipotence means that God has the power to create and destroy the universe at His desire. Creating something from nothing is omnipotence.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:3) The act of creation => Actively chosing whatever would happen and be chosen within a creation he has total control over due to "1" & "2"

Your statement #3 shows you know nothing about God. You want to argue against Him yet you want use the book that describes who He is. That's like trying to redefine math and never opening a math book. 

Mr. Obvious Wrote:This is a square, kid. You want to explain to me where my reasoning is wrong and how it makes the circle of 'free choice'? Protip: you have to point out where its not logical, not where 'scripture says so'.

First thing I'm not a kid. Secondly you have no idea what you are talking about so your definition of who God is doesn't wash. Until you study the scriptures you are backing up. The scriptures come from God telling us who He is unless you know of a better source. See how the Bible is the only one you need to read it. What you have said is not logical because you do not know what the definition of God's attributes are and you left out omnipresent which explains why you can't possibly understand who God is.

I'm not twisting the burden of proof because i haven't tried to prove God to you, I'm telling you what I know about God because He has revealed such things to me and many other Christians. By the way if you make the claim God isn't real the burden of proof falls on you, I do not have to nor need to prove He is real I already know He is.

GC[/quote]

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(October 14, 2017 at 7:33 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:08 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  I didn't even read your response, we've been through this enough and I'm tired of your willful spite on this subject.

GC

Is that directed at me?

Anywhoo I'm not spiteful, just pointing out that all the supernatural characters in theologies are mythical to me.
Talking about them as though they exist has the same impact as trying to convince me of how Harry Potter wore his briefs.
Its talking about fiction.

Until you can actually come up with something that has some substance that will continue to be my opinion.

Oh and I don't care, atheism is not a big part of my life. It just happens to be how it is.
The same way I live in England, its just one of those things.

 If you are Astreja then it is, but seeing that you are not then NO.

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(October 14, 2017 at 7:58 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(October 13, 2017 at 11:10 pm)Godscreated Wrote:  I worship the God who gave us His word so that we could have a spiritual relationship with Him, the book is all about how to enter that relationship and keep the relationship healthy.

GC

The biblical God is Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies.  Gentiles were on his shit list.

You really like to show how dumb you are don't you.

(October 17, 2017 at 3:20 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(October 14, 2017 at 12:08 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Pretty sure your little god invented sin by defining right and wrong behaviors.

 Sin has to be committed, it's not just hanging around. God doesn't define sin, sin is action contrary to who God is, this was so before creation.

What does "before creation" mean?
Does time exist without it being created?
Is god's existence contingent on the existence of time?

Or is a book written 2000 years ago too primitive to even begin to grasp these questions?... let alone even try to provide an answer.