It seems to be that the more you really study the apparent design around us, the clearer it becomes that it is only apparent, not real. If it was designed, it was designed to appear uncreated on close examination.

(October 24, 2017 at 4:03 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: It seems to be that the more you really study the apparent design around us, the clearer it becomes that it is only apparent, not real. If it was designed, it was designed to appear uncreated on close examination.

It's the amount of organizing that makes creation show as a possibility on the table.
From planetary orbits to natural phenomena; an inch in the left or the right after creation (big bang) could've produced a very different universe. Or nothing at all; even.

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(October 23, 2017 at 11:40 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 23, 2017 at 11:37 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What do you think of his arguments, though, Atlas?  I'd expect you to be sympathetic to one or both.

He is so immersed in jealousy....

....I really have no comment. I didn't want to feed you; but please...get a life. Please.
Troll !

(October 23, 2017 at 10:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 1. It is better to sincerely try to objectively seek the vision of guidance rather than not.
2. If God doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance.
3. If there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance, then it is not better to objectively seek the vision of guidance rather then not.

1, 3. If both these premises are true, we can conclude there is a reason to believe one can vision of guidance. Call this premise (4).

4, 2 proves God exists if both premises are true.

(October 24, 2017 at 9:01 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Morality is guidance, whether innate and coming from evolution, or otherwise, it is but guidance and vision on how to act with true love or justice.

Your own words refute premise 2.

Stop trying to provide philosophical arguments that God exists. You suck at it.

(October 24, 2017 at 10:51 am)Losty Wrote:

(October 23, 2017 at 10:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 1. It is better to sincerely try to objectively seek the vision of guidance rather than not.

Why?

To gain clarity on how to act on honest love and justice.

MK, sounds like you want a seeing eye dog rather than have your own sight.

(October 24, 2017 at 8:58 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: MK, sounds like you want a seeing eye dog rather than have your own sight.

One own's vision is not stationary, never has been and never will be as for moral guidance goes.

(October 24, 2017 at 8:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 24, 2017 at 10:51 am)Losty Wrote: Why?

To gain clarity on how to act on honest love and justice.

Why do you think you can't seek such guidance from your own mind and life experiences?

(October 24, 2017 at 9:10 pm)Losty Wrote:

(October 24, 2017 at 8:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: To gain clarity on how to act on honest love and justice.

Why do you think you can't seek such guidance from your own mind and life experiences?

You can seek guidance, but if God doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe one will be guided if they seek guidance.  And if you have no such guarantee, there is no reason to believe you ought to seek that guidance.

It is not that you can't seek that guidance.

And you can see the differences in humans with morality,  a lot of people try to find enlightenment through their own mind and life experiences,  but at the end, if guidance is to exist, it must be from the Absolute, it must emanate from the being that ought to be valued most.

I don't mean book or message by this, I mean, luminosity inwardly has to emanate from God. But if God remotely even cares if humans follow and unite on that light from him, he would send books and establish his authority through his chosen ones.

The last sentence with holy books and authority of chosen ones is not the subject of the thread.

If guidance doesn't emanate from the perfect judge and Guide, there is no reason to believe it truly is guidance.  The guidance of God is the guidance, there is no other possible guidance.

You can;t seem to make up your mind on what this vision of guidance is, or whether or not it must emanate from a god.  While you figure that out..I have questions.

Why on earth would a god...send books?  Why books to illiterate people, for that matter?  Why would he require earthly princes to do his bidding?

In any case, if you -do- want to maintain the insistence that this "guidance" can only be divine......, then your argument is rendered even more inept.

Quote:1. It is better to sincerely try to objectively seek god than not.
2. If God doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe one can gain god.
3. If there is no reason to believe one can gain god, then it is not better to objectively seek god rather then not.

1, 3. If both these premises are true, we can conclude there is a reason to believe god. Call this premise (4).

4, 2 proves God exists if both premises are true.

If god, god, god god god..then...god?

(October 24, 2017 at 9:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 24, 2017 at 9:10 pm)Losty Wrote: Why do you think you can't seek such guidance from your own mind and life experiences?

You can seek guidance, but if God doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe one will be guided if they seek guidance.  And if you have no such guarantee, there is no reason to believe you ought to seek that guidance.

I disagree. I seek guidance from my family, from my close friends, from my past experiences. There's guidance everywhere, no god needed