Here is this very argument being dissected 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...ntingency/





If the OP is allowed to use a website so am i .

(November 13, 2017 at 10:52 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Here is this very argument being dissected 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...ntingency/





If the OP is allowed to use a website so am i .

I thought of Matt D.'s breakdown as soon as I saw this thread title.

(November 13, 2017 at 11:28 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 10:52 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Here is this very argument being dissected 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...ntingency/





If the OP is allowed to use a website so am i .

I thought of Matt D.'s breakdown as soon as I saw this thread title.

It's a good break down

(November 13, 2017 at 9:01 pm)SteveII Wrote: I prefer discussing the modern version of the Argument from Contingency:

1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence (either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause).
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
3. The universe exists.
4. The universe has an explanation of its existence. (from 1 and 3)
5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God. (from 2 and 4)

It is easier for someone to understand right away. Aquinas' takes getting used to the language and the various threads of logic. 

So, which of these premises are wrong?

(November 13, 2017 at 10:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Premise 2.  Unsound, and assumes the conclusion.  How could that not jump out at you?

Yeah, premise 2 works better this way:

2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation sure isn't God.

(November 13, 2017 at 10:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Premise 2.  Unsound, and assumes the conclusion.  How could that not jump out at you?

I don't think either of those charges is true.

For reference: 
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

Would you have a problem with "If atheism is true, the universe has no explanation of its existence?" Premise 2 simply states that very same conclusion in a logically equivalent way (the opposite). Neither logically equivalent statement assumes the conclusion because the premise is just laying out the either/or -- prefaced with "If". 

Additionally, it is easy to also reason that if something created the universe, it was a necessarily existing, uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and personal cause. There are very few things that answer to all those attributes.  Where did this list come from? They are simply the things necessary to either stop an infinite regress or are attributes that describe what must have preceded those things that began to exist when the universe began to exist (or a combination of both).

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(November 13, 2017 at 11:28 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(November 13, 2017 at 10:52 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Here is this very argument being dissected 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...ntingency/



If the OP is allowed to use a website so am i .

I thought of Matt D.'s breakdown as soon as I saw this thread title.

If either of you want's to summarize or pull out a point or two, I will respond. I am not going to have a discussion with a youtube video.

Nice job steve of not actually fielding an objection . Just insisting your flawed idea's as truth .

(November 13, 2017 at 9:01 pm)SteveII Wrote: I prefer discussing the modern version of the Argument from Contingency:

1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence (either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause).
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
3. The universe exists.
4. The universe has an explanation of its existence. (from 1 and 3)
5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God. (from 2 and 4)

It is easier for someone to understand right away. Aquinas' takes getting used to the language and the various threads of logic. 

So, which of these premises are wrong?

1 is unevidenced assertion, 2 is assuming your premise exists and using that assumption as evidence. 3 is trivially true, 4 falls apart because you haven't shown one to be true and because 2 is what you're trying to prove, so 5 is false.

(November 13, 2017 at 11:54 pm)SteveII Wrote: I don't think either of those charges is true.

For reference: 
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

That's just too bad, because those "charges" are an observation of inarguable facts.  You have no reason to believe that premise 2 is true, and it is an assertion of precisely what the argument is meant to demonstrate.  The premise fails on it's own as a premise, and scuttles the arguments validity in the process.  

Quote:Would you have a problem with "If atheism is true, the universe has no explanation of its existence?"

It wouldn't be any less unsound.  More worryingly....there doesn't appear to be any necessary relationship between the antecedent and consequent in either formulation.  Meaning that this category of assertion is fundamentally uninformative in any conditional statement.  There's no explicit or rational reason to conclude that the universe would or wouldn;t have an explanation regardless of whether or not a god exists or doesn't.  No specific combination of those four propositions is any more or less likely to be true than any other, and any of them could be true. It may be that there is a god, but that the universe doesn't have an explanation at all, it just is, or it may be that there is no god -and- the universe doesn't have any explanation. Or perhaps the universe does have an explanation, there is a god, but the explanation for the universe is not that god. Or perhaps there is no god and the universe is explicable. The one you're angling for is that there s a god, the universe is explicable, and that explanation is god..but if you had a rational reason to conclude as much I doubt that you'd have been forced to assert it -in- your "rational" reason for concluding as much.

In short, if there -is- such a reason to conclude what you have..you just aren't aware of it and so cannot communicate it to anyone else, or yourself.

Quote:Premise 2 simply states that very same conclusion in a logically equivalent way (the opposite). Neither logically equivalent statement assumes the conclusion because the premise is just laying out the either/or -- prefaced with "If". 

Premise two simply states the conclusion, we have no reason to believe that it's true, and no reason to assume that the truth or falsehood of the antecedent can cogently comment on the consequent...and so, no expectation that the truth or falsehood of the consequent can cogently comment on the antecedent.  

It's worthless.  

Quote:Additionally, it is easy to also reason that if something created the universe, it was a necessarily existing, uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, and personal cause. There are very few things that answer to all those attributes.  Where did this list come from? They are simply the things necessary to either stop an infinite regress or are attributes that describe what must have preceded those things that began to exist when the universe began to exist (or a combination of both).

An exposition of the articles of your faith are irrelevant. You presented an argument. It's mechanical difficulties are insurmountable. No amount of the other things you believe will rescue it from itself. If you want to present an argument, that's going to take more than stringing claims together in a fashion convenient to the articles of your faith. Meanwhile, you certainly don't -need- an argument or any rational reason whatsoever to believe. This much is not only true by definition of beliefs in general, it's demonstrably true of your specific beliefs by reference to the things you field in support of them.

(November 13, 2017 at 9:01 pm)SteveII Wrote: I prefer discussing the modern version of the Argument from Contingency:

1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence (either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause).
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
3. The universe exists.
4. The universe has an explanation of its existence. (from 1 and 3)
5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God. (from 2 and 4)

It is easier for someone to understand right away. Aquinas' takes getting used to the language and the various threads of logic. 

So, which of these premises are wrong?

For starters, you've made it clear that by 'exist' you include 'exist as an abstract object'. So, if the argument is sound, existing in our imaginations fulfills the requirement of existence. Since the only way you can derive 5 from the premises is if you count any explanation at all of the universe as 'God', the quantum fluctuation hypothesis has just as good a claim for being God based on this argument as Yahweh.

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If atheism is true, it is true that there are people who are atheists. If it's true that there is no God, any explanation for the universe won't be God.

Seems like the theists on AF rarely post videos about theology but rather make their points directly, whereas it is common for af atheists to believe that because they found a video that counts as a point. Must have something to do with the ability to think for think for ones self.