I think there's been a disconnect. Yes, God, people do bring up the idea of atheist churches very frequently. People also insinuate that atheism's "weakness" is it's inability to be compatible with religious tradition. You're allowed to say whatever you like (within the rules), and people are allowed to disagree with you. You're insinuating that the community is close minded and dogmatic, which judging by this conversation alone, is not true. Again, this is a common complaint from theists. You can say nice things about priests, so can I. Do you have anything else or can we get along with it already?

Is there any scripture that you would like for us to consider?

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I'm just yanking your chain God.

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I've been wondering, btw, what lead you to seek the advice of a vicar. May be commonplace among atheists, but it does seem to go against the current. Why a vicar as opposed to someone else?

(August 17, 2011 at 2:16 pm)Godnose Wrote: My desire for something equivalent to a church has nothing to do with "socialising", as suggested by Welsh Cake, nor with "hobbies".

*Ahem* You can kindly direct your response to me please, I am right here you know. Don't berate people on the board here for being "cold hearted" when you yourself are behaving in a borderline uncivil and disrespectful manner.

Quote:In any case, if I wanted to socialise why not join a social club rather than the devious method of pretending an interest in pottery or whatever? That seems just as daft as taking up religion. But I don't give a fig about "socialising", if by that you mean standing around "chatting" and suchlike.

Yet arguing we should have a church and vicars isn't daft? Do you honestly even know what atheism is? Or are you ranting away without taking the time to think about what we've actually been saying this whole time?

(August 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I think there's been a disconnect. Yes, God, ...

My name is Godnose. I don't know who this "God" is that you keep mentioning and whose chain you wish to yank (does that make you a "yanker", btw?)

Anyway, just in case you meant to address me:

Quote:people do bring up the idea of atheist churches very frequently.

Aha! So there is some demand then. Interesting.

Quote: People also insinuate that atheism's "weakness" is it's inability to be compatible with religious tradition.

Not me though. I said something to the effect that it would be a good thing for atheism to be able to replicate some of the useful roles carried out by churches. Which is not at all the same thing, eg I'm not proposing worship.

I want to get rid of religion, which because it is fundamentally based upon falsehoods I think is a flawed system for social cohesion. However it does have many useful and productive functions, and they need to be replaced. That is a pro-atheist position, not anti. I want atheism to become the norm, but that can never happen until the socially essential functions of religion are recognised and incorporated into atheism.

Quote: You're allowed to say whatever you like (within the rules), and people are allowed to disagree with you.

There's a difference between being disagreed with and sheer belligerence, such as being told one is a poser, sheep in wolves clothing etc - or receiving an attack based on one's name, or accused of being something one is not declaring, etc etc.

Quote: You're insinuating that the community is close minded and dogmatic, which judging by this conversation alone, is not true. Again, this is a common complaint from theists.

What I'm "insinuating" is that there is NO atheist "community" - there's just a collection of individuals, some of whom choose to collect together to defend an ill-conceived dogma of their own creation, and others who prefer not to join in such collective aggression, and that the whole atheist "community" is a complete inchoate mess.

Quote:You can say nice things about priests, so can I. Do you have anything else or can we get along with it already?

Is there any scripture that you would like for us to consider?

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I'm just yanking your chain God.

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There's that God person again. You seem to be obsessed with it!

Quote:I've been wondering, btw, what lead you to seek the advice of a vicar.

I think I've made it pretty clear that it was a delicate moral dilemma for which I required objective impartial advice. So don't you think it a tad idiotic to expect me to discuss it here?

Quote:May be commonplace among atheists, but it does seem to go against the current.

The current what? Oh, I see what you mean - the current dogma.
I guess so!

But, you see IDGAF.

Quote:Why a vicar as opposed to someone else?

There wasn't anyone else suitable. Like I said. Before. You know. In my very first post? "The only person I found I was able to get any kind of useful support from was the minister of the local church, with whom I was at the time only very slightly aquainted."

Godnose there are atheist communities out-there, this happens to be one of them. I can only speak for myself, however I balk at the idea of an atheist church. Because churches are often places where you are required to believe in what the church believes in or else. This place and other atheist communities (I hope) are the exact opposite of sort of mentality.

(August 17, 2011 at 6:50 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(August 17, 2011 at 2:16 pm)Godnose Wrote: My desire for something equivalent to a church has nothing to do with "socialising", as suggested by Welsh Cake, nor with "hobbies".

*Ahem* You can kindly direct your response to me please, I am right here you know. Don't berate people on the board here for being "cold hearted" when you yourself are behaving in a borderline uncivil and disrespectful manner.

Good grief, that seems extremely picky, but OK, have my apology if you insist. Although I'd hardly have thought it warranted the admonition "behaving in a borderline uncivil and disrespectful manner". A slight oversight possibly.

I guess I could have quoted you to make it clear, even though it was the very next post after yours.

Quote:

Quote:In any case, if I wanted to socialise why not join a social club rather than the devious method of pretending an interest in pottery or whatever? That seems just as daft as taking up religion. But I don't give a fig about "socialising", if by that you mean standing around "chatting" and suchlike.

Yet arguing we should have a church and vicars isn't daft? Do you honestly even know what atheism is? Or are you ranting away without taking the time to think about what we've actually been saying this whole time?

There are roles performed by the religious institutions that are extremely positive and have a productive role in society. Yes of course I know what atheism and anyone who thinks it is essential to remove every vestige of every religious institution is a fool, IMHO.

(August 17, 2011 at 7:20 pm)Godnose Wrote: There wasn't anyone else suitable. Like I said. Before. You know. In my very first post? "The only person I found I was able to get any kind of useful support from was the minister of the local church, with whom I was at the time only very slightly aquainted."

I don't know what country you're from or what you wanted advice on but here's some examples of secular people/organisations you could go to for advice in the UK;

GP
NHS direct
Citizens Advice Bureau
Friends
Family
Internet forums
Anonymous internet chatrooms
Internet support chatrooms
Wikipedia
Yahoo Answers (just kidding!)

Plenty more I'm sure. The fact is that you chose to talk to a priest, there's always another option.

The idea of having an appointed atheist to dish out advice is not an idea that appeals to me at all. Who's to say whether their advice would be better than anyone else's?

edited ,changed my mind.

(August 17, 2011 at 7:42 pm)Justtristo Wrote: Godnose there are atheist communities out-there, this happens to be one of them.

This is not a community. This is an internet forum.

Quote:I can only speak for myself, however I balk at the idea of an atheist church.

I understand that. It is a common reaction to balk at the denial of any dogma in which one has placed one's faith. I regard myself as being extremely fortunate not to have been indoctrinated into any such faith. There is still hope for you, also. All you have to do is cast off your preconceptions and free yourself from dogma.

Quote:Because churches are often places where you are required to believe in what the church believes in or else.

Some are. Some are not. They vary. That particular quality is not one that I would advocate adopting.

Quote:This place and other atheist communities (I hope) are the exact opposite of sort of mentality.

If only!

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(August 17, 2011 at 7:53 pm)Skeptic Wrote:

(August 17, 2011 at 7:20 pm)Godnose Wrote: There wasn't anyone else suitable. Like I said. Before. You know. In my very first post? "The only person I found I was able to get any kind of useful support from was the minister of the local church, with whom I was at the time only very slightly aquainted."

I don't know what country you're from or what you wanted advice on

(it was a private and personal moral dilemma concerning a member of my family)

Quote: but here's some examples of secular people/organisations you could go to for advice in the UK;

GP

irrelevant and not appropriate use of free public service

Quote:NHS direct

irrelevant and not appropriate use of free public service

Quote:Citizens Advice Bureau

Not appropriate for moral advice

Quote:Friends

not appropriate in view of the need for objectivity

Quote:Family

It concerned my family - not appropriate

Quote:Internet forums

TOTALLY irrelevant and COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY not appropriate

Quote:Anonymous internet chatrooms

Brrrrr!

Quote:Internet support chatrooms

Brrrrr!

Quote:Wikipedia

Yikes!

Quote:Yahoo Answers (just kidding!)

So I would hope!

Quote:Plenty more I'm sure. The fact is that you chose to talk to a priest, there's always another option.

Nope. Nothing I could think of. Nothing you have suggested. It was quite a while ago now and I still cannot think of anywhere else I could have turned to for the kind of advice I needed. But virtually ANY priest or clergy would have worked. I know, it's a shame. It ought to have been possible to find an atheist. That's my point!

Quote:The idea of having an appointed atheist to dish out advice is not an idea that appeals to me at all.

I recognise that. It's a sticking point in the dogma to which you have allowed yourself to become subject. I advise you to liberate yourself from it.

Quote: Who's to say whether their advice would be better than anyone else's?

Yes, I agree, that is a point upon which a degree of trust is necessary. There needs to be confidence in the advice giver. However IMO it's not the quality of the advice that's so important, although it should be of a reasonable standard. Remember, an important part of the whole point of advice is that one is always free to accept it or ignore it. Far more important (IMO) is the sincerity with which it is given and the complete assurance of confidentiality.

What do you consider a community? People who can actually see each other? I don't actually see my damn neighbors most days, or talk to them, and we're a "community". What makes this NOT a community?

(August 17, 2011 at 4:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Are priests not authority figures? Is this not the intended role?

Excuse ME!
I am here you know!!!

Apparently (according to Welsh Cake) one is supposed to specifically address one's comments ... or have I totally misunderstood this? Or is it a rule that only applies to me? Oh dear, now I've probably mentioned Welsh Cake inappropriately or something. Oh deary deary me, what a tangled web of hypocrisy and fallaciousness I do perceive ... but hark! Is this all nothing but a paranoid delusion???