Meh, I don't take it literally, I simply related the story.  I don;t take -any- of the stories literally, or "god"...for that matter. The story is a foil just like it's two main characters.  It expresses the cultures perception that they have struggled with god.  That even they do not always fare well under the divine eye...and that sometimes they win, but most times they lose or a win comes at a cost.  The blessing conferred came bundled with a crippling and a taboo, in the story above.

Common pagan narratives, betraying the poly-come-heno-come-monotheist pedigree of the stories.

The more I read all the different threads/posts about "debunking" this religion or that religion I keep thinking, "why aren't more skeptics taking a global view"?

Three books I think address in really decent terms the superfluous nature of ALL religions in our species history. 

1. The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins..... While it does focus on the big three monotheisms it does explain also in later chapters where religion comes from in evolutionary terms as a result of flawed perceptions.

2. God The Failed Hypothesis, Victor Stenger

3. The New Atheism, Victor Stenger.......<---- This book says there is no separate but equal and  that science DOES have something to say about any and all God/god/s claims. It also in later chapters compares the motifs in several religions including those in Asia to demonstrate that claims of good and morality exist in all religions, which should show the reader that our sense of morality, isn't coming from the writing itself, but is in our evolution.

Even Hitchens has said, and I agree, our species 200,000 years ago didn't have even writing, or modern housing or farming. Our species lived in a very dark age of lack of modern knowledge back then. Back then everything scared the shit out of us as a species, so we created gap answers to explain why nature did what it did, and attached human like qualities as to being in charge of that but with super natural powers.

So sure Christianity is what atheists deal with the most in the west, but it still isn't the only one in our species history, all of them worldwide are all rooted in superstition and mythology and gap answers.

(November 29, 2017 at 11:45 am)Brian37 Wrote: The more I read all the different threads/posts about "debunking" this religion or that religion I keep thinking, "why aren't more skeptics taking a global view"?

Three books I think address in really decent terms the superfluous nature of ALL religions in our species history. 

1. The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins..... While it does focus on the big three monotheisms it does explain also in later chapters where religion comes from in evolutionary terms as a result of flawed perceptions.

2. God The Failed Hypothesis, Victor Stenger

3. The New Atheism, Victor Stenger.......<---- This book says there is no separate but equal and  that science DOES have something to say about any and all God/god/s claims. It also in later chapters compares the motifs in several religions including those in Asia to demonstrate that claims of good and morality exist in all religions, which should show the reader that our sense of morality, isn't coming from the writing itself, but is in our evolution.

Even Hitchens has said, and I agree, our species 200,000 years ago didn't have even writing, or modern housing or farming. Our species lived in a very dark age of lack of modern knowledge back then. Back then everything scared the shit out of us as a species, so we created gap answers to explain why nature did what it did, and attached human like qualities as to being in charge of that but with super natural powers.

So sure Christianity is what atheists deal with the most in the west, but it still isn't the only one in our species history, all of them worldwide are all rooted in superstition and mythology and gap answers.

I really enjoyed God The Failed Hypothesis, although I've only heard it as an audiobook when I was working. I'm definitely going to have to read The New Atheism, are there more book by Victor Stenger you'd recommend? 
Although on a similar note of what you first described about that book I'd recommend Faith vs Fact: Why Religion And Science Are Incompatible by Jerry A. Coyne (author of Why Evolution Is True) in which he makes a very solid case as to why it's inaccurate to say that science and religion can coexist and that they are fundamentally incompatible on virtually every level.

(November 29, 2017 at 11:45 am)Brian37 Wrote: The more I read all the different threads/posts about "debunking" this religion or that religion I keep thinking, "why aren't more skeptics taking a global view"?

Three books I think address in really decent terms the superfluous nature of ALL religions in our species history. 

1. The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins..... While it does focus on the big three monotheisms it does explain also in later chapters where religion comes from in evolutionary terms as a result of flawed perceptions.

2. God The Failed Hypothesis, Victor Stenger

3. The New Atheism, Victor Stenger.......<---- This book says there is no separate but equal and  that science DOES have something to say about any and all God/god/s claims. It also in later chapters compares the motifs in several religions including those in Asia to demonstrate that claims of good and morality exist in all religions, which should show the reader that our sense of morality, isn't coming from the writing itself, but is in our evolution.

Even Hitchens has said, and I agree, our species 200,000 years ago didn't have even writing, or modern housing or farming. Our species lived in a very dark age of lack of modern knowledge back then. Back then everything scared the shit out of us as a species, so we created gap answers to explain why nature did what it did, and attached human like qualities as to being in charge of that but with super natural powers.

So sure Christianity is what atheists deal with the most in the west, but it still isn't the only one in our species history, all of them worldwide are all rooted in superstition and mythology and gap answers.

Tolstoy wrote that, "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." In a like sense, we need to keep in mind that while all religions may appeal to certain common denominators, the ways in which they fail tend to be unique and highly context dependent. If one simply wishes to blather on how religion as a whole shares some traits, that's fine, but persuading others requires that we appeal to the separate and independent ways different religions function for the individual.

(November 28, 2017 at 10:26 pm)possibletarian Wrote: It gets better with time, I was actually raised as a Jehovah's Witness which I left at 16 (as soon as my parents said i could make my own choices) which led to all manners of discord, which to a degree i understood. I believe the indoctrination left me emotionally immature in some ways.

The 'god' bug though was very strong and later in life I got involved with a baptist church,  I always had believed in a god and got involved with a much more traditional church, which for me , now an adult i fared much better.  I became very active in my faith, I identified  with the closeness of god, the holy spirit, indeed i was very winsome with my faith and had about 30 or so spiritual (people i had the then honour of guiding to faith) children , many of which keep in touch despite my rejection of faith, in fact they still come to me for advice. I lost a great deal of friends, kept others (who pray for me) to be fair i think it's simply awkward for them i have rejected what is most dear to their hearts and that's hard to take.

The road out is as complex as the one in, it takes years to unravel what it took years to indoctrinate but bit by bit is does unravel and I no longer fear any backlash,  i am finding a new found freedom especially in the area of discovery, science, and the people around me, now not having to filter everything through the irrational filter of religion, i can see clearly now.  The road out can be very hard, and very costly..  but it is worth the journey.

Thanks for sharing your story. And I appreciate your caring words, but I "came out" as an atheist in my early teens. It was a problem then, but not anymore. As for "indoctrination" I have one vague memory of it when I was a young child. I went to Sunday school with one of my protestant friends. In my Catholic Sunday school classes we did crafts or listened to Bible stories, stuff like that. But in my friend's Sunday school class, these two women came in and talked about "these people who don't believe in God" and how horrible they were. Quite frankly, I think it had the opposite of its intended effect. I was intrigued, never having heard God's nonexistence mentioned before. 

It sounds like you invested some serious time and effort in your faith. You said the road out was difficult for you. Do you still have difficulties? Or are you past that? In its own way, Atheism can be rather rewarding.

I think the most rewarding thing about being an atheist is the freedom of thought. One feels free to explore any number of interpretations of the universe without feeling that one has sinned. To perceive the beauty of the universe and not reflexively think of some biblical creator is to truly behold an unfathomable beauty. Another benefit is of not taking offense at things which are not offensive. Gay people aren't trying to rebel against God; they're just gay. When someone is honest and forthright about something, it isn't blasphemy, it's telling it like it is. To me, the advantages of atheism outweigh any potential disadvantages.

(November 29, 2017 at 9:23 am)Bow Before Zeus Wrote: Richard Dawkins "The Greatest Show on Earth". Hands down the greatest book that proves that xtianity is a fairy-tale.

It does no such thing.

(November 30, 2017 at 12:15 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Thanks for sharing your story. And I appreciate your caring words, but I "came out" as an atheist in my early teens. It was a problem then, but not anymore. As for "indoctrination" I have one vague memory of it when I was a young child. I went to Sunday school with one of my protestant friends. In my Catholic Sunday school classes we did crafts or listened to Bible stories, stuff like that. But in my friend's Sunday school class, these two women came in and talked about "these people who don't believe in God" and how horrible they were. Quite frankly, I think it had the opposite of its intended effect. I was intrigued, never having heard God's nonexistence mentioned before. 

LOL, oops!  Sometimes it seems that the best thing a believer can do for their god, is shut their mouth.  Ironically, this is the only thing that the truly fervent are simply incapable of doing.    

Quote: To me, the advantages of atheism outweigh any potential disadvantages.

I struggle to see what disadvantage there could be.  Is there a potential disadvantage to a-unicornism as well?

(November 28, 2017 at 9:59 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I collected (and still collect) myths like other kids collected baseball cards.  My kids get a kick out of it.  I recounted Beowulf to them, full on storyteller mode...to cover the time in our last roadtrip and shut their yapping mouths.


...

I struggle to see what disadvantage there could be.  Is there a potential disadvantage to a-unicornism as well?  

Well, I meant "social disadvantages." I think possiblitarian mentioned something like awkward moments with his friends that continue to believe. I was alienated by certain family members for a brief time... etc. Some people go through this stuff; it depends on one's situation. Maybe "difficulties" would have been a better word.

But you got me thinking: ARE there any disadvantages to nonbelief? Maybe "spiritual feelings" can be of benefit. But any atheist can go chant mantras without actually being a Hindu. This will get those spiritual feelings going and no belief required. I will put some thought into it and see if I can't come up with an actual disadvantage. Simply as an intellectual exercise. 


I'm also interested in your "myth collection." That sounds friggin' awesome. Although I don't believe in any of it, I find religion and mythology fascinating. I like Greek myths, but who doesn't. A few years ago, I got into Hindu mythology. A lot of those stories are fun. Like you said in another post, a lot of myths have deep stories to tell. Even Adam and Eve, when one does not commit the folly of thinking it literally happened, may be a deep human story about growing up and losing innocence. Or perhaps man's journey from tribal life to civilization. There are a number of ways to interpret it.

I wish my Dad told Beowulf on family trips. 

(November 30, 2017 at 12:55 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Well, I meant "social disadvantages." I think possiblitarian mentioned something like awkward moments with his friends that continue to believe. I was alienated by certain family members for a brief time... etc. Some people go through this stuff; it depends on one's situation. Maybe "difficulties" would have been a better word.

Strangely enough, I don't have those awkward moments with family members who -have- shunned other people for falling away from their shared faith.  I'd posit that the awkwardness and shunning was due to a perceived rejection of what they attempted to instill in you, a subtle and often personally felt criticism of them...not the simple fact of your atheism.   This may explain why I, having been married in or having never believed, get a pass.  I;ve even got a knack for getting the more religious members of my family to tell blasphemous jokes. I'll appreciate them, and I'm not an inappropriate audience for that sort of thing.

Quote:But you got me thinking: ARE there any disadvantages to nonbelief? Maybe "spiritual feelings" can be of benefit. But any atheist can go chant mantras without actually being a Hindu. This will get those spiritual feelings going and no belief required. I will put some thought into it and see if I can't come up with an actual disadvantage. Simply as an intellectual exercise. 

Be interesting to see what you come up with.  

Quote:I'm also interested in your "myth collection." That sounds friggin' awesome. Although I don't believe in any of it, I find religion and mythology fascinating. I like Greek myths, but who doesn't. A few years ago, I got into Hindu mythology. A lot of those stories are fun. Like you said in another post, a lot of myths have deep stories to tell. Even Adam and Eve, when one does not commit the folly of thinking it literally happened, may be a deep human story about growing up and losing innocence. Or perhaps man's journey from tribal life to civilization. There are a number of ways to interpret it.

They go off into the trees and next thing you know, bam, Eves pregnant.  Obviously wasn't an apple that Adam was eating in that bush. 

Quote:I wish my Dad told Beowulf on family trips. 

I butchered it, lol..but they don't know that.  It'll be better next time.  The alternative is listening to k-pop or incessant arguing.  That shits enough to make -me- rip a motherfuckers arm off. My eldest daughter, Allannah, thinks that Beowulf is the villain, she empathizes with grendels mother. She's cute like that. Her younger sister, Morrigan...doesn't concern herself with the moral ramifications of the story..she just likes stories where peoples arms come off.

(November 30, 2017 at 1:12 am)Khemikal Wrote: Strangely enough, I don't have those awkward moments with family members who -have- shunned other people for falling away from their shared faith.  I'd posit that the awkwardness and shunning was due to a perceived rejection of what they attempted to instill in you, a subtle and often personally felt criticism of them...not the simple fact of your atheism.   This may explain why I, having been married in or having never believed, get a pass.  I;ve even got a knack for getting the more religious members of my family to tell blasphemous jokes.  I'll appreciate them, and I'm not an inappropriate audience for that sort of thing.

I think rejection may be a key word here. You, in having a "predisposition" toward nonbelief, simply don't count as having had rejected faith, because you never accepted it in the first place. Think of it in terms of someone breaking up with someone after dating for six months. How might someone who is still committed to the relationship respond?


"Remember when we sang hymns in Church together last Easter, and we both seemed really into it? Was that just meaningless to you?"

"Remember when we all got together and prayed? That was real to me. Wasn't it real to you?"

"Who is she? The secular humanists? The objectivists? You're not hanging out with the Unitarian Universalists, are you? All the women who go there are whores!"