(December 19, 2017 at 2:18 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: men's rights/women's rights/black rights... e.t.c all start with valid reasons and noble intentions, but in due time all of them forget the concept of equality and devolve into the same "look-at-me-I-am-the-biggest-victim" movement.

If you look at the "mens' rights" movement it started out as a "get women chained back to the stove" movement and went downhill from there. From the start it was populated wit misogynistic neo-nazis.

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(December 19, 2017 at 3:26 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 3:17 pm)Grandizer Wrote: As a man who never had to experience the disadvantages and deprivation of rights as women have, I can afford to think about the disadvantages both men and women go through in an equal manner. If some women cant, thats their struggle, not mine or feminists in general.

When they make up a large portion of feminists, it's a general problem.

I see that line being peddled in the right wing media about a lot of different groups, inflating the importance of fringe ideologies that have little traction or influence in reality to make them look the dominant factor (a political examle is the demonising of the slightly soc-dem Jeremy Corbyn as a Trot in British papers). Unfortunately the dominance of the right in the media gives reasonable people the idea that reasonable ideas are wrong and evil (incidentally it also gives a veneer of centrism to the currently dominant far-right economic theories).

(December 20, 2017 at 12:29 am)Tres Leches Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 5:58 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Suicide, as I recall,  disproportionately affects men too.

Citation?
-Teresa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dif...in_suicide


He's right. Around a 4:1 ratio in the Western world. Four male suicides for every one female suicide is significant. But depending on the country, the situation is different. In China, more women commit suicide at a 8:10 ratio. 

The issue is murkier than this though. Women attempt suicide more often. Experts believe that many women choose methods which are not as successful as the one's men choose. Women commonly attempt a pharmaceutical overdose, cutting wrists etc. Men commonly use firearms (successful 90-95% of the time). Also, women are more likely to use a suicide attempt as a "cry for help." Women are twice as likely as men to suffer from major depression (the primary cause of suicide), but they are also more likely to seek treatment.

A lot of this I learned in a thanatology class I took. (Study of death.) We examined suicide at length.

As a younger man, I felt that my Men's Rights were being violated because of the astonishing number of women who declined to sleep with me.  Bigots, the lot of them.

Boru

I suffered similar oppression.

(December 19, 2017 at 2:43 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 1:59 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: And of course you could pay $$$$ to go to a retreat, organized by said hippies, to run through the woods naked making primal screams.

If you're paying someone for the privilege of running naked through the woods and baying at the moon, you have more problems than not being initiated into 'manhood'. You're an idiot.

#someweirdnessisfree

Yeah I've never even contemplated paying someone when I've ran naked through some woods, or anywhere else for that matter.

I've never tried making primal screams. Not sure why anyone would think that any of this would have anything to do with gender though.

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(December 19, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Yes, men do have disadvantages in society. Funnily enough, due to traditional gender role expectations, which feminists are fighting against. Hence why being "very feminist" (as OP says it) is a very good thing to be.

Depends on the feminist. As I said, there are those who don't give a shit about problems men might have. They only care about traditional gender roles as far as it encumbers them. Talk to them about how traditional gender roles make it hard for men to talk about sexual abuse and they couldn't care less. Being "very feminist" is often a very obnoxious thing to be.

I agree with both of you. I agree with Grandizer about what feminism should be about in freeing up both men and women, and in my non-American experience it generally is. But I also agree that there are is one type of feminist who is basically pissed off at not being the ones able to subjugate everyone else. These are also commonly TERFs and have just as many bigotries as the white straight men that they are angry at. Sometimes they even form alliances with white wing christian conservatives against minorities that they mutually resent.

I don't know about America where everything just seems more extreme, but my experience in the UK is that most feminists are not like this.

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(December 19, 2017 at 5:02 pm)alpha male Wrote: If you're a real man conducting yourself with honor, discipline and intelligence, you won't need a movement to protect you. Things will naturally work out in your favor.

Shame you can't say that about 'real women' conducting themselves with honour, discipline and intelligence.

(December 20, 2017 at 3:05 am)Wololo Wrote: I see that line being peddled in the right wing media about a lot of different groups, inflating the importance of fringe ideologies that have little traction or influence in reality to make them look the dominant factor (a political  examle is the demonising of the slightly soc-dem Jeremy Corbyn as a Trot in British papers). Unfortunately the dominance of the right in the media gives reasonable people the idea that reasonable ideas are wrong and evil (incidentally it also gives a veneer of centrism to the currently dominant far-right economic theories).

As I pointed out before, it has been my experience. I'm not peddling a line that all feminists are assholes. I'm not even demonizing feminists. I've made it quite clear that I'm talking about my experience with vocal feminists (I admit I probably know a bunch of reasonable ones who just don't talk about it). That experience has been largely negative and unreasonable. As for this comparison with right-wing British gobbledygook, I'm not British. Moreover, my feelings about the MRA movement are largely the same as I have about feminism. There are better positions to have.

Obviously I support men's rights because I support right for all but I seriously doubt that a movement is required when you look at what men get away in society just because they're men.

It sounds almost as absurd to me as a White Lives Matter movement.

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(December 20, 2017 at 5:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: As a younger man, I felt that my Men's Rights were being violated because of the astonishing number of women who declined to sleep with me.  Bigots, the lot of them.

Boru

Ohhhhhhhhhhh I never knew that was bigotry!

Okay I've got five hundred and forty seven attractive women I need suing, know any good lawyers?

I've been married so long that I have no rights.

(December 20, 2017 at 2:22 am)Grandizer Wrote: Women with autism are there in a prevalent manner, theyre just very good at hiding it. There are several articles about hidden autism in women.

Then again, a lot of the time, if the person in question is higher functioning, one can be good at hiding it (sometimes, it's because of therapy, sometimes simply watching enough films to pick up on what's considered normal can help.) I've had some teachers who've only picked up on it because I don't bother with eye contact most of the time. I know for a fact that CL was surprised to find out I live with it. Hell, a lot of people spend most of their lives knowing there's something off and only figuring out it's an ASD later in life (say, Susan Boyle, David Byrne, Gary Numan, and Paddy Considine), but that could just be because autism was obscure until Rain Man, and it took longer for the public to catch on that we don't all act like Raymond Babbitt.

(December 20, 2017 at 1:15 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 2:22 am)Grandizer Wrote: Women with autism are there in a prevalent manner, theyre just very good at hiding it. There are several articles about hidden autism in women.

Then again, a lot of the time, if the person in question is higher functioning, one can be good at hiding it (sometimes, it's because of therapy, sometimes simply watching enough films to pick up on what's considered normal can help.) I've had some teachers who've only picked up on it because I don't bother with eye contact most of the time. I know for a fact that CL was surprised to find out I live with it. Hell, a lot of people spend most of their lives knowing there's something off and only figuring out it's an ASD later in life (say, Susan Boyle, David Byrne, Gary Numan, and Paddy Considine), but that could just be because autism was obscure until Rain Man, and it took longer for the public to catch on that we don't all act like Raymond Babbitt.

I'll probably be diagnosed with autism next month.