(December 23, 2017 at 1:52 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(December 23, 2017 at 1:50 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The minority is always bashed. Humans have this disgusting trait, sadly. I'm sure if women became the majority; men will be oppressed the same way.

I am a little confused by this. We are 50:50.

Because the societies have privileged male for so long, many inculcated roles, stereotypes, institutions, expectation and customs have had time to arise that protects and solidify this privilege.   But the Origin of the male dominance of most societies seems to me to be traceable to warfare throughout the history to Neolithic age.  If organized warfare is frequent and often end in destruction or subjugation of the defeated, than societies which previliges the warriors would tend to do better.  Even down to the present day physical strength is at a premium in warfare.  Thus previleging of the warrior class is the previleging of the male.

Btw, i believe we are not quite 50:50. Slightly more male babies are born than girls, so at birth the ratio favors boys. But with access to modern healthcare women have longer lifespan than men, so each each higher age bracket the proportion of women increases until beyond retirement age women substantially outnumber men. Overall I believe the ratio in most modern societies slightly favor women.

(December 23, 2017 at 2:00 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(December 23, 2017 at 1:54 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I guess the definition is too broad then. It must be more specific

I think it's important not to get caught up in semantics.

*syntax
semantics refer to the meaning; syntax refer to the literal structure.

When the syntax is ambiguous; the semantics are ambiguous too, and lead to logical holes and misunderstandings.
Communication should be about meanings; and to make sure the meaning you want to transfer is right; the syntax must be right too

(December 23, 2017 at 2:29 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 23, 2017 at 2:00 pm)Mermaid Wrote: I think it's important not to get caught up in semantics.

*syntax
semantics refer to the meaning; syntax refer to the literal structure.

When the syntax is ambiguous; the semantics are ambiguous too, and lead to logical holes and misunderstandings.
Communication should be about meanings; and to make sure the meaning you want to transfer is right; the syntax must be right too

I actually meant semantics.

(December 23, 2017 at 2:31 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(December 23, 2017 at 2:29 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: *syntax
semantics refer to the meaning; syntax refer to the literal structure.

When the syntax is ambiguous; the semantics are ambiguous too, and lead to logical holes and misunderstandings.
Communication should be about meanings; and to make sure the meaning you want to transfer is right; the syntax must be right too

I actually meant semantics.

Then your sentence would mean:

Quote:I think it's important not to get caught up in meanings.

Sorry; but I'll surely think about what somebody meant a lot.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant to say.

You are interpreting the definition of "feminist" as sameness biologically from what I can tell. (correct me if I am wrong).

That is semantics. That's what I mean.

---

(December 23, 2017 at 11:54 am)Mermaid Wrote:

(December 23, 2017 at 10:22 am)pool the matey Wrote: Feminists want more stuff for women and mra want more stuff for men, simple as that. 

This is fundamentally wrong at least about feminists. It is not about wanting "stuff". 

I see a lot of people discussing what is a feminist, and that's fair, but I can only relay how I see things. 

I am a feminist. 

I grew up female, and culturally, that means being pleasant, not making waves, looking a certain way. Being somehow lesser than. (I was born in the 60s, so my generation is very likely to be socialized differently than younger ones). When I was born, women could not get bank credit without a man co-signing for her. We were fired for being pregnant. We were expected to abandon any career when we got married. We had no control over our own reproductive choices, there was no widely available birth control for women. Why has that changed? Because women spoke up. That is the kind of feminist I am. 

I have had men comment on my physical appearance every day (when I was younger and more attractive, thank heavens I became invisible when I hit 40). If we don't look a certain way, we are not attractive to men and have no value in the world. I have men at work and other situations interrupt me when I am talking. I have had bosses that spoke to me like I was a child, and who gave men credit for my thoughts and ideas, repeatedly, and have watched other women get the same treatment. I have people tell me that I am selfish for not having kids and instead focusing on my career. We are faulted for taking time from work to have children, and in fact, most of us don't get any paid maternity leave because there is no law in this country that allows for it. I am lucky enough to work for a company that gives up to 12 weeks of "disability" when you go out on leave. (is pregnancy a "disability"?). We are expected to be sexually selective and chaste, and if we are not, we are disgusting and dirty and shameful (while men are celebrated). We are blamed and/or doubted when we are sexually assaulted, something I have firsthand knowledge of. We face men who want to dictate whether we are to carry pregnancies in our own bodies. We are expected to be more helpless, dependent on marriage and family, and acquiescent in general. To Love, Honor and Obey. (and for this I blame religion largely). 

I take umbrage to sexism, like sports teams joking about how their opponents carry purses, as if women are somehow lesser, weaker, something to be ridiculed. 

This is the kind of feminist I am. 

So instead of wanting "stuff", as a feminist, I think my main issue is being prejudged and disrespected because I have a uterus. This is what I care about. This is a societal wrong. 

So in that light, MRAs to me are that kid at Christmas who isn't getting the same number of gifts as women. The non-oppressed whining that they are not getting the special attention that the oppressed are demanding. The dismissal of issues brought up by the oppressed by the groups who do not understand at all what it's like to walk a mile in the others' shoes. I would love to hear arguments to the contrary, please tell me if I am wrong. This is how it appears to me, a group of people with a certain amount of disdain for the other. 

As a feminist, I want equal opportunity for ALL PEOPLE regardless of sex. I love men. I am not a man-hating dyke although I have been called that for expressing these thoughts to others. I don't want special stuff. I don't deny anyone their own story of their own struggles. I want to listen and understand. I don't want special treatment. I want a level playing field.

I'd also like to point out that there have been countless times where men have told me or attempted to tell me what I mean when I say something, and have also cast doubt on what I say. As a result, I grew up with a lot of self doubt that I am just recently seeing with a clear lens. I am in my mid-50s. I find this to be a cultural, paternalistic regularity that I didn't even notice. 

I should point out that I am a career scientist, which I think is relevant in this context.

(December 23, 2017 at 2:49 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Yes, that is exactly what I meant to say.

You are interpreting the definition of "feminist" as sameness biologically from what I can tell. (correct me if I am wrong).

That is semantics. That's what I mean

---

The malformed syntax led to the malformed semantic of the sentence.
More elaboration was needed in the definition.
But semantics of your post pour in the same place I intended to say

(December 23, 2017 at 3:34 am)Tiberius Wrote: Also I find it kinda funny that using the word "dipshit" once in a post, a word that the person I was responding to had previously used, somehow means I "lost my cool" or "blew a gasket".

Hey you set the level of our expectations with years of cool headed reasonableness.  *get the straight jacket ready, boys*

---

(December 23, 2017 at 11:54 am)Mermaid Wrote:

(December 23, 2017 at 10:22 am)pool the matey Wrote: Feminists want more stuff for women and mra want more stuff for men, simple as that. 

This is fundamentally wrong at least about feminists. It is not about wanting "stuff". 

I see a lot of people discussing what is a feminist, and that's fair, but I can only relay how I see things. 

I am a feminist. 

I grew up female, and culturally, that means being pleasant, not making waves, looking a certain way. Being somehow lesser than. (I was born in the 60s, so my generation is very likely to be socialized differently than younger ones). When I was born, women could not get bank credit without a man co-signing for her. We were fired for being pregnant. We were expected to abandon any career when we got married. We had no control over our own reproductive choices, there was no widely available birth control for women. Why has that changed? Because women spoke up. That is the kind of feminist I am. 

I have had men comment on my physical appearance every day (when I was younger and more attractive, thank heavens I became invisible when I hit 40). If we don't look a certain way, we are not attractive to men and have no value in the world. I have men at work and other situations interrupt me when I am talking. I have had bosses that spoke to me like I was a child, and who gave men credit for my thoughts and ideas, repeatedly, and have watched other women get the same treatment. I have people tell me that I am selfish for not having kids and instead focusing on my career. We are faulted for taking time from work to have children, and in fact, most of us don't get any paid maternity leave because there is no law in this country that allows for it. I am lucky enough to work for a company that gives up to 12 weeks of "disability" when you go out on leave. (is pregnancy a "disability"?). We are expected to be sexually selective and chaste, and if we are not, we are disgusting and dirty and shameful (while men are celebrated). We are blamed and/or doubted when we are sexually assaulted, something I have firsthand knowledge of. We face men who want to dictate whether we are to carry pregnancies in our own bodies. We are expected to be more helpless, dependent on marriage and family, and acquiescent in general. To Love, Honor and Obey. (and for this I blame religion largely). 

I take umbrage to sexism, like sports teams joking about how their opponents carry purses, as if women are somehow lesser, weaker, something to be ridiculed. 

This is the kind of feminist I am. 

So instead of wanting "stuff", as a feminist, I think my main issue is being prejudged and disrespected because I have a uterus. This is what I care about. This is a societal wrong. 

So in that light, MRAs to me are that kid at Christmas who isn't getting the same number of gifts as women. The non-oppressed whining that they are not getting the special attention that the oppressed are demanding. The dismissal of issues brought up by the oppressed by the groups who do not understand at all what it's like to walk a mile in the others' shoes. I would love to hear arguments to the contrary, please tell me if I am wrong. This is how it appears to me, a group of people with a certain amount of disdain for the other. 

As a feminist, I want equal opportunity for ALL PEOPLE regardless of sex. I love men. I am not a man-hating dyke although I have been called that for expressing these thoughts to others. I don't want special stuff. I don't deny anyone their own story of their own struggles. I want to listen and understand. I don't want special treatment. I want a level playing field.

Just drop the mike.

(December 23, 2017 at 2:49 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Yes, that is exactly what I meant to say.

You are interpreting the definition of "feminist" as sameness biologically from what I can tell. (correct me if I am wrong).

That is semantics. That's what I mean.

---

(December 23, 2017 at 11:54 am)Mermaid Wrote: This is fundamentally wrong at least about feminists. It is not about wanting "stuff". 

I see a lot of people discussing what is a feminist, and that's fair, but I can only relay how I see things. 

I am a feminist. 

I grew up female, and culturally, that means being pleasant, not making waves, looking a certain way. Being somehow lesser than. (I was born in the 60s, so my generation is very likely to be socialized differently than younger ones). When I was born, women could not get bank credit without a man co-signing for her. We were fired for being pregnant. We were expected to abandon any career when we got married. We had no control over our own reproductive choices, there was no widely available birth control for women. Why has that changed? Because women spoke up. That is the kind of feminist I am. 

I have had men comment on my physical appearance every day (when I was younger and more attractive, thank heavens I became invisible when I hit 40). If we don't look a certain way, we are not attractive to men and have no value in the world. I have men at work and other situations interrupt me when I am talking. I have had bosses that spoke to me like I was a child, and who gave men credit for my thoughts and ideas, repeatedly, and have watched other women get the same treatment. I have people tell me that I am selfish for not having kids and instead focusing on my career. We are faulted for taking time from work to have children, and in fact, most of us don't get any paid maternity leave because there is no law in this country that allows for it. I am lucky enough to work for a company that gives up to 12 weeks of "disability" when you go out on leave. (is pregnancy a "disability"?). We are expected to be sexually selective and chaste, and if we are not, we are disgusting and dirty and shameful (while men are celebrated). We are blamed and/or doubted when we are sexually assaulted, something I have firsthand knowledge of. We face men who want to dictate whether we are to carry pregnancies in our own bodies. We are expected to be more helpless, dependent on marriage and family, and acquiescent in general. To Love, Honor and Obey. (and for this I blame religion largely). 

I take umbrage to sexism, like sports teams joking about how their opponents carry purses, as if women are somehow lesser, weaker, something to be ridiculed. 

This is the kind of feminist I am. 

So instead of wanting "stuff", as a feminist, I think my main issue is being prejudged and disrespected because I have a uterus. This is what I care about. This is a societal wrong. 

So in that light, MRAs to me are that kid at Christmas who isn't getting the same number of gifts as women. The non-oppressed whining that they are not getting the special attention that the oppressed are demanding. The dismissal of issues brought up by the oppressed by the groups who do not understand at all what it's like to walk a mile in the others' shoes. I would love to hear arguments to the contrary, please tell me if I am wrong. This is how it appears to me, a group of people with a certain amount of disdain for the other. 

As a feminist, I want equal opportunity for ALL PEOPLE regardless of sex. I love men. I am not a man-hating dyke although I have been called that for expressing these thoughts to others. I don't want special stuff. I don't deny anyone their own story of their own struggles. I want to listen and understand. I don't want special treatment. I want a level playing field.

I'd also like to point out that there have been countless times where men have told me or attempted to tell me what I mean when I say something, and have also cast doubt on what I say. As a result, I grew up with a lot of self doubt that I am just recently seeing with a clear lens. I am in my mid-50s. I find this to be a cultural, paternalistic regularity that I didn't even notice. 

I should point out that I am a career scientist, which I think is relevant in this context.

Yup, happens to me too more often than I'd care to think about, unfortunately (although I'm not a career scientist). It bothers me when I'm talked to for no apparent reason like I know little or nothing about a particular topic. It's probably wrong of me to do this but I usually just nod and smile while thinking "I know more about this subject than this guy does." And then I change the subject.

-Teresa

(December 20, 2017 at 12:28 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 3:05 am)Wololo Wrote: I see that line being peddled in the right wing media about a lot of different groups, inflating the importance of fringe ideologies that have little traction or influence in reality to make them look the dominant factor (a political  examle is the demonising of the slightly soc-dem Jeremy Corbyn as a Trot in British papers). Unfortunately the dominance of the right in the media gives reasonable people the idea that reasonable ideas are wrong and evil (incidentally it also gives a veneer of centrism to the currently dominant far-right economic theories).

As I pointed out before, it has been my experience. I'm not peddling a line that all feminists are assholes. I'm not even demonizing feminists. I've made it quite clear that I'm talking about my experience with vocal feminists (I admit I probably know a bunch of reasonable ones who just don't talk about it). That experience has been largely negative and unreasonable. As for this comparison with right-wing British gobbledygook, I'm not British. Moreover, my feelings about the MRA movement are largely the same as I have about feminism. There are better positions to have.

Even if it is what you think you experience I'd be very surprised if a a huge chunk of it wasn't pre-learned from the bias in outside sources.

The backlash against feminism has been going very strong for the last forty years and more, and to call it vitriolic is to grossly undersell its bile.

(December 23, 2017 at 5:58 pm)Wololo Wrote:

(December 20, 2017 at 12:28 pm)Shell B Wrote: As I pointed out before, it has been my experience. I'm not peddling a line that all feminists are assholes. I'm not even demonizing feminists. I've made it quite clear that I'm talking about my experience with vocal feminists (I admit I probably know a bunch of reasonable ones who just don't talk about it). That experience has been largely negative and unreasonable. As for this comparison with right-wing British gobbledygook, I'm not British. Moreover, my feelings about the MRA movement are largely the same as I have about feminism. There are better positions to have.

Even if it is what you think you experience I'd be very surprised if a a huge chunk of it wasn't pre-learned from the bias in outside sources.

The backlash against feminism has been going very strong for the last forty years and more, and to call it vitriolic is to grossly undersell its bile.

Backlash is a good way to describe it. The quote in my signature is by a feminist writer who wrote a book called "Backlash - The Undeclared War Against Women". I did a paper in college about her book and that was in the mid 1990s.

-Teresa