I should state that I take no position with regard to the belief or disbelief of a god, deity or metaphysical divinity. What I am curious about is what this world might be like with a discouraged belief in something beyond ourselves. Is it possible that the imagination of something greater than ourselves helps certain types of humans cope with the cultural societal and interpersonal struggles of life. If one is more sensitive to the overall outcome of a system rather than the behaviors of the individual parts in that system, then that person is likely to feel weighted down in their managed individual control since they recognize that their actions have little effect on the system on whole. If they somehow believe that their individual actions have profound effect on the system because they believe the greater system is tied to their actions, then they might feel happily empowered when there would find little motivation to act otherwise. This motivation might be metaphorically named as being the spirit. I might challenge that religion and spiritualism could be an adaptive coping strategy for humans. And I would even posit that the culture that has the strongest religious core along side a strong desire for technology will likely be a culture that will dominate all other cultures.

Hi,

I would like to say hi to the forum first.

It is usually considered good form to introduce yourself first before jumping in like this.

(May 12, 2009 at 3:30 pm)[email protected] Wrote: I should state that I take no position with regard to the belief or disbelief of a god, deity or metaphysical divinity.

Why not?

(May 12, 2009 at 3:30 pm)[email protected] Wrote: Is it possible that the imagination of something greater than ourselves helps certain types of humans cope with the cultural societal and interpersonal struggles of life.

It might, but if these certain types of humans need a faith, a placebo crutch for their life, it doesn't make the existence of that crutch any more real. Just like some recovered drug addicts thank their god for kicking the habit. If it helps them, great. They just fail to see it wasn't their god that did it, it was themselves all along.

But those that do it secular, can also take the credit for themselves if they succeed or only blame themselves if they fail. No excuses.

A delusion might help and give comfort, but it doesn't make it real.

(May 12, 2009 at 3:30 pm)[email protected] Wrote: If one is more sensitive to the overall outcome of a system rather than the behaviors of the individual parts in that system, then that person is likely to feel weighted down in their managed individual control since they recognize that their actions have little effect on the system on whole.

It only takes a snowflake to land on the right place to cause an avalanche. Just because one plays a small part in a grand scheme of things doesn't mean they cannot make a difference. And again, no god is required for such a process.

(May 12, 2009 at 3:30 pm)[email protected] Wrote: If they somehow believe that their individual actions have profound effect on the system because they believe the greater system is tied to their actions, then they might feel happily empowered when there would find little motivation to act otherwise.

Still, it has no bearing on the actual existence of gods or if their beliefs are justified.

(May 12, 2009 at 3:30 pm)[email protected] Wrote: This motivation might be metaphorically named as being the spirit.

Or delusion.

(May 12, 2009 at 3:30 pm)[email protected] Wrote: I might challenge that religion and spiritualism could be an adaptive coping strategy for humans. And I would even posit that the culture that has the strongest religious core along side a strong desire for technology will likely be a culture that will dominate all other cultures.

Do you have any evidence of that? As far as I can tell the best economies on the planet and the highest standard of living with the lowest crime rates are found in countries that are more secular.

First question - Why not take a position? Because I simply don't have one as it is not currently a relevant concern to my life right now.
Second statement - Delusion over what is real in the sense of a belief is irrelevant. A belief doesn't imply knowledge. I find it interesting that most astronomers believe that there is intelligent life on other planets and once you mention the possibility that we might be the only intelligent life forms in the universe they manifest an almost religious position against that possibility.
Third statement - It wasn't my point to mention that they couldn't make a difference so much as they might need inspiration to make a difference.
Fourth statement - Beliefs being justified. It doesn't stand to reason that a belief would have any jurisdiction for some justification. A belief of hypothesis is usually the precondition before a universal truth is uncovered.
Fifth statement - How does one's motivation for life have any less effect if the conditions surrounding that motivation are based on illusion? You seem to believe that action cannot exist without the justification of that action. When a gun is pointed at your head and you say don't shoot because you wish to tell the shooter that his motivations are based on an illusion you won't accomplished much, you might possibly buy a little time before the trigger is pulled but you might be insane to try to out reason a person's belief.
Sixth statement. Israel is a very technologically savvy country with a very strong religious core.

Hey Iykuran,

You might find it a little easier to use the 'quoting' system to break up your argument so I thought i'd give you a quick pointer;

At the bottom of the post your replying to, the center symbol is the quote tool, if you click that then 'New Reply' you get a bulk quote for that post.

You can then break it up by using the [*quote=*] function at the start of each piece of text and [*/quote*] function at the end.

(N.b. you don't use the *'s I only put them in to stop that showing up as a quote.)

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: First question - Why not take a position? Because I simply don't have one as it is not currently a relevant concern to my life right now.

So why did you feel it necessary to make your opening that way if you didn' t think it was relevant?

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: Second statement - Delusion over what is real in the sense of a belief is irrelevant.

To you maybe.

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: A belief doesn't imply knowledge. I find it interesting that most astronomers believe that there is intelligent life on other planets and once you mention the possibility that we might be the only intelligent life forms in the universe they manifest an almost religious position against that possibility.

They just look at the odds and find that idea improbable. If you think that is an almost religious position then I think you haven't met any true fundies yet.

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: Third statement - It wasn't my point to mention that they couldn't make a difference so much as they might need inspiration to make a difference.

And then again they might not. If anything that says more about those people than anything else. What is your point?

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: Fourth statement - Beliefs being justified. It doesn't stand to reason that a belief would have any jurisdiction for some justification.

Can you translate that in an English a foreigner like me can relate to? Because I read this about 5 times now and I have no clue what you mean by that.

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: A belief of hypothesis is usually the precondition before a universal truth is uncovered.

Those hypotheses didn't just pop up out of the blue, some basis was laid for those truths were uncovered.

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: Fifth statement - How does one's motivation for life have any less effect if the conditions surrounding that motivation are based on illusion? You seem to believe that action cannot exist without the justification of that action.

Well then you would be wrong. It is completely irrelevant. But as a rule you are better equipped to make the right decisions based on things that ARE real as opposed to pure speculation or fantasy/delusions.

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: When a gun is pointed at your head and you say don't shoot because you wish to tell the shooter that his motivations are based on an illusion you won't accomplished much,

You assume I will try to reason with a guy holding a gun at me? Think again.

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: you might possibly buy a little time before the trigger is pulled but you might be insane to try to out reason a person's belief.

How do you jump from "This motivation might be metaphorically named as being the spirit." from nutcase blowing my brains out as a reasoning for your assertion?

(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: Sixth statement. Israel is a very technologically savvy country with a very strong religious core.

And Sweden doesn't have a religious core and is just as advanced if not more so. Neither does Holland, Denmark, Switzerland. Isreal is also one of these countries that feel the first hand results of those "empowered and motivated" people when they blow themselves up in public transport.

Quote:And Sweden doesn't have a religious core and is just as advanced if not more so. Neither does Holland, Denmark, Switzerland. Isreal is also one of these countries that feel the first hand results of those "empowered and motivated" people when they blow themselves up in public transport

Great point Leo!

Thanks for the tip Sam

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(May 12, 2009 at 4:47 pm)[email protected] Wrote: Sixth statement. Israel is a very technologically savvy country with a very strong religious core.

And Sweden doesn't have a religious core and is just as advanced if not more so. Neither does Holland, Denmark, Switzerland. Isreal is also one of these countries that feel the first hand results of those "empowered and motivated" people when they blow themselves up in public transport.
[/quote]

I believe this debate has many tangents to follow but this one interests me a little more. There is a sort of irony here about Sweden, Holland, Denmark and Switzerland being just as advanced yet more secular. I wish to give reference to the idea of animals in the animal kingdom. The lion and the lynx, both equally capable creatures are in a situation where there are limited resources for food, assuming they can't go anywhere else. The lion would break the neck of the lynx to ensure its survival. Israel like the lion would do the same to all these Nordic countries. Israel technically has the third or fourth largest nuclear arsenal in the world and they are not a secular society. They are technologically advanced where it matters the most and they are more "spiritually inspired" to ensure they come out on top of the food chain whereas these Nordic countries sit passively while their culture deteriorates because they have no real motivation to preserve their culture. Like I said, the culture with a strong religious core and a strong embracing of technology to protect their culture may come out supreme when all is said and don.

(May 13, 2009 at 9:34 am)[email protected] Wrote: They are technologically advanced where it matters the most and they are more "spiritually inspired" to ensure they come out on top of the food chain whereas these Nordic countries sit passively while their culture deteriorates because they have no real motivation to preserve their culture. Like I said, the culture with a strong religious core and a strong embracing of technology to protect their culture may come out supreme when all is said and don.

Nope, knowledge is far superior then any religious militray power. Such civilizations always fail. Cultrues based on knowledge and tolerence are superior. Maybe not alone, I live in Sweden and can't say we have a strong military defence since there are almost none. However were a part of the EU and we have alot of "allies". We would get help from so many since we are friends them.

An attack from Israel against any country outside their terriotory would make them everyones enemy.

Also to have a culture with a stonrg religious core is likely to some day crack and fall apart. With a culture like mine that evolves and get influences by others will make the civilazation grow and survive. That's not the case with a strongly religious culture.

Quote:Nope, knowledge is far superior then any religious militray power. Such civilizations always fail. Cultrues based on knowledge and tolerence are superior. Maybe not alone, I live in Sweden and can't say we have a strong military defence since there are almost none. However were a part of the EU and we have alot of "allies". We would get help from so many since we are friends them.

An attack from Israel against any country outside their terriotory would make them everyones enemy.

Also to have a culture with a stonrg religious core is likely to some day crack and fall apart. With a culture like mine that evolves and get influences by others will make the civilazation grow and survive. That's not the case with a strongly religious culture.

But your culture in Sweden doesn't have the prime motivator "fear of extinction". Israel has a propaganda machine going at full power brainwashing their people that the world is out to destroy them, using the constant reminder of the "holocaust". Never mind that any other large groups of people like Polish, Gypsies, Ukrainian, and Russian people also died in German concentration camps. What is most important is that the Jewish people are mythologically the only real people to be systematically persecuted in the world. They use this as a pretext for power. And they also have history to teach them not to make the mistakes that Germany made when it wanted world power. Israel has one of the greatest spy rings in the history of the world, and what is so amazing is that their spies are within the highest reaches of many advanced government nations and they don't hide this knowledge that they are working for a foreign government, in fact they boast this knowing full well that no one will challenge them. It is ultimate power. Sweden can claim to have all the "friends" in the world to help them but just remember that they also felt that same way when "german boots" came marching across their borders half a century ago. Israel may not even need army boots to walk across your border. They are there already.

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I wish to shed light on something. The UN is a world body supposedly representing all the civilized nations of the world. For the first time in the history of a UN preceding, twenty delegates from most of the Western nations of the world walked out of a conference when the leader of Iran pointed his finger at Israel for being a racist country. This says only one thing. Israel is "Extremely" powerful.

Put this: [quote] at the start of the passage you wish to quote.

Personally, I think Israel, Great Britain, and the US form a power pyramid, based on religion and government.