(December 30, 2017 at 1:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 30, 2017 at 11:59 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: I always am not sure what people mean when they say something like "Jesus never existed" what qualifies him existing or not? What percentage of the gospels have to be accurate for him to have existed?

If there was a jewish preacher who traveled the roman empire, preached about the virtures of poverty over wealth and living a life of astetic seperation from the world, and was killed by the Romans,  is that man Jesus?  There were probably multiple people like that. Do the stories have to be 90% true? 50%, 10%? Nobody on either side of the debate ever really clarifies what they mean by saying what qualifies a biblical figure to have existed in the first place.

I think it renders the whole debate pointless until that is worked out first.

What I usually mean by 'Jesus never existed' is that the Gospels are not biographical to any meaningful extent.  That is, there wasn't a person who was born in Bethlehem, grew up in Nazareth (after a sojourn in Egypt), performed miracles involving wine, bread, fish, water-walking, weather control, healing and necromancy, ran afoul of the local authorities, suffered torture, death by crucifixion, was resurrected and ascended into Heaven.

Were there Jewish heretics that went about preaching as you described?  Almost certainly, but that doesn't make them 'Jesus' anymore than (to return to an earlier point of mine) a 12th century highwayman who may have helped poor people qualifies as Robin Hood, or a Romanized Briton giving some Saxons a rough time matches up with the king described in 'Morte d' Arthur'.

Boru

I'd say that you fall into that "need it to be 90% true" sort of range. The thing is that if you need that level of specificity, it's hard to say that anybody in the ancient world existed. That level of specificity in the ancient world means that nobody really existed.

Almost nothing was written without the flair of the supernatural. Did Marco Polo travel through Asia (there are doubters, by the way)? His journals are about 80% cyclopses and supernatural stuff. That is way later too, when literacy and record keeping is far better. Let's say we cut your list down to the bare essentials and assume the added stuff is just the normal supernatural flair for every religious documentation of the time: someone who was born around Bethlehem, someone who grew up around Nazareth, who traveled and preached a message of Jewish rebellion against the government and anti-materialism, suffered torture and was crucified.

I might call a 12th century highway man Robin hood. I think it's a good comparison to Jesus actually. Depends on the details. If there was a 12th century highwayman who supported the poor and operated around Nottingham, how is he not Robin hood?

To require details to match exactly seems pedantic. I'm an Atheist, obviously I don't believe in miracles. However Alexander the great, Ghenghis Khan, even modern people like Geranimo have miracles associated with them. I don't not believe they existed because people associated miracles with them.

I'm willing to believe biblical harlots existed. Not by specific name, just in general.

(down boy, down)

(December 29, 2017 at 3:51 am)Godscreated Wrote: I wouldn't hold to much stock in a youtube vid. The city of Gath has been found and a piece of pottery with the name Goliath on it. Could be she is wrong, very wrong, I know she is.

GC

And your credentials are...


Mellisa, I wouldn't put much stock in what GC says. He is trying to refute a Phd (who actually can read and understand ancient Hebrew) with what he wants to be true, not what the evidence points to.

Quote:And your credentials are...

He's an asshole with a particularly shitty version of the bible!

(December 30, 2017 at 11:59 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: I always am not sure what people mean when they say something like "Jesus never existed" what qualifies him existing or not? What percentage of the gospels have to be accurate for him to have existed?

If there was a jewish preacher who traveled the roman empire, preached about the virtures of poverty over wealth and living a life of astetic seperation from the world, and was killed by the Romans,  is that man Jesus?  There were probably multiple people like that. Do the stories have to be 90% true? 50%, 10%? Nobody on either side of the debate ever really clarifies what they mean by saying what qualifies a biblical figure to have existed in the first place.

I think it renders the whole debate pointless until that is worked out first.

Can't even convince current era US Christians Christ forbid remarriage following divorce.

If that's off the table, can't be much left in the cupboard even for the 'supposed' believers . . . .

(December 30, 2017 at 2:04 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 29, 2017 at 3:51 am)Godscreated Wrote: I wouldn't hold to much stock in a youtube vid. The city of Gath has been found and a piece of pottery with the name Goliath on it. Could be she is wrong, very wrong, I know she is.

GC

And your credentials are...


Mellisa, I wouldn't put much stock in what GC says. He is trying to refute a Phd (who actually can read and understand ancient Hebrew) with what he wants to be true, not what the evidence points to.

Unable to think for yourself?

The very first question the interviewer asked this woman was "who wrote the Bible?". Her response was "Moses"...

First, literally no one thinks Moses wrote the Bible, the Bible is comprised of 66 books written by like 40 different people over a period of around 1500 years, Moses is credited with 5 of the books.

She gave an incorrect answer to the most basic question, but OH NOES SHE HAS PHD!


She goes on to say unequivocally that Moses never existed but at 2:19 of the video this changes to Moses "probably" wasn't real....

Also she mentions no archeological evidence for Jonah? What kind of archaeological evidence would you expect to  find of a guy swallowed and spit out by a fish? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, how many people have existed on this planet that there is no evidence for?

That's pretty much as far as I got.

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(December 30, 2017 at 2:58 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Can't even convince current era US Christians Christ forbid remarriage following divorce.

What scripture are you referring to?

(December 30, 2017 at 9:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Unable to think for yourself?

The very first question the interviewer asked this woman was "who wrote the Bible?". Her response was "Moses"...

First, literally no one thinks Moses wrote the Bible, the Bible is comprised of 66 books written by like 40 different people over a period of around 1500 years, Moses is credited with 5 of the books.

She gave an incorrect answer to the most basic question, but OH NOES SHE HAS PHD!

That's pretty much as far as I got.

Actually she said ''some people think it was Moses'' and i stopped reading your grossly inaccurate misleading reply there

(December 30, 2017 at 10:13 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(December 30, 2017 at 9:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Unable to think for yourself?

The very first question the interviewer asked this woman was "who wrote the Bible?". Her response was "Moses"...

First, literally no one thinks Moses wrote the Bible, the Bible is comprised of 66 books written by like 40 different people over a period of around 1500 years, Moses is credited with 5 of the books.

She gave an incorrect answer to the most basic question, but OH NOES SHE HAS PHD!

That's pretty much as far as I got.

Actually she said ''most people think it was Moses'' and i stopped reading your grossly inaccurate misleading reply there

And I said Literally no one thinks it was Moses...

(December 30, 2017 at 10:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(December 30, 2017 at 10:13 pm)possibletarian Wrote: Actually she said ''most people think it was Moses'' and i stopped reading your grossly inaccurate misleading reply there

And I said Literally no one thinks it was Moses...

Well try getting your first sentence out correctly, then maybe people will take you more seriously

She actually said 'some' who are we to listen to..? people who believe these myths, or someone who has actually studied and travelled extensively and has a credited qualification.

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I suspect this was the verse referred to

Luke 16:18

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery"

and

Matthew 5:31~32

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

(December 30, 2017 at 10:22 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(December 30, 2017 at 10:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: And I said Literally no one thinks it was Moses...

Well try getting your first sentence out correctly, then maybe people will take you more seriously

She actually said 'some' who are we to listen to..? people who believe these myths, or someone who has actually studied and travelled extensively and has a credited qualification.

How about you do a little research for yourself.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...100433.htm

Quote:Source: Mississippi State University

Six official clay seals found by an archaeological team at a small site in Israel offer evidence that supports the existence of biblical kings David and Solomon. Many modern scholars dismiss David and Solomon as mythological figures and believe no kingdom could have existed in the region at the time the Bible recounted their activities. The new finds provide evidence that some type of government activity was conducted there in that period.

This find happened before that video btw.

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(December 30, 2017 at 10:22 pm)possibletarian Wrote: I suspect this was the verse referred to

Luke 16:18

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery"

and

Matthew 5:31~32

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

You're allowed to remarry if the reason for divorce was infidelity.