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Quote:“We have seen some individual consequences of inbreeding, such as dental defects, skeletal defects and sterility in some males. But we see the consequence of inbreeding most clearly in the size of the family groups,” Flagstad said. The size of family groups is determined each winter by examining tracks and scat. "What we see is that parents who are severely inbred have fewer offspring. A smaller proportion of their pups grow to adulthood. The close kinship seems to affect the survival of pups and reproduction in adult wolves,” says Flagstad.
Also
Quote:In many of the inbred wolves, researchers found many identical genes from both the parents. Over time, this strong genetic similarity may make the animals more susceptible to genetic diseases and the species less adaptable overall
And
Quote:For long-term survival, Flagstad believes that it is important that new wolves come in from the outside world.
Let me refer back to your earlier quote:
(December 31, 2017 at 7:45 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Actually you never addressed this . It remains a fact that any population born of only two creatures would suffer massive amounts of genetic defects . Which is why incest is dangerous .
From your own link which you refer to as the "death nail" (it's knell btw)
December 31, 2017 at 7:00 pm (This post was last modified: December 31, 2017 at 8:20 pm by Amarok.)
It still causes defects that threaten the whole wolf population over the long term. I would say that's pretty massive you know because they will go extinct unless new outside wolves are introduced to increase genetic diversity . Your clearly picking and choosing what you wanna take from this . The fact is the wolves are threatened by inbreeding it's not healthy nor is it producing a permanent stable population .So MY case is proven and your sloppy cherry picking of science to support your fairytales is the thing that's eaten it .
Quote:Inbreeding does not seem to have hurt the Scandinavian population so far, but Flagstad says there have been some effects.
Counter
Quote:For long-term survival, Flagstad believes that it is important that new wolves come in from the outside world.
Quote:“We have seen some individual consequences of inbreeding, such as dental defects, skeletal defects and sterility in some males. But we see the consequence of inbreeding most clearly in the size of the family groups,” Flagstad said. The size of family groups is determined each winter by examining tracks and scat. "What we see is that parents who are severely inbred have fewer offspring. A smaller proportion of their pups grow to adulthood. The close kinship seems to affect the survival of pups and reproduction in adult wolves,” says Flagstad.
Again your selective reading at it's finest the wolves are not healthy and are under threat for their survival . Again my original point stands . Inbreeding threatens the wolf . Therefore this does not support the idea two creatures can create a thriving stable population . And is indeed a massive defect caused by inbreeding .
Quote:Inbreeding (mating between relatives) is a major concern for conservation as it decreases individual fitness and can increase the risk of population extinction.
Quote:Small populations are particularly vulnerable to extinction due to demographic stochasticity, reduced genetic variation and inbreeding depression1,2,3,4. Inbreeding (mating between relatives) in small populations can lead to decreased individual fitness and population growth rate, owing to the expression of deleterious recessive alleles and increased homozygosity at loci with heterozygous advantage3,5
Quote: Our ability to detect this increase was likely facilitated by having considered multiple kinds of anomaly. Many of the found anomalies are likely associated with inbreeding or some form of genetic deterioration
Quote:Researchers from Uppsala University and others have for the first time determined the full genetic consequences of intense inbreeding in a threatened species.
Quote:The Scandinavian wolf population was founded in the 1980s by only two individuals. This has subsequently led to intense inbreeding, which is considered a long-term threat to the population.
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
December 31, 2017 at 11:59 pm (This post was last modified: January 1, 2018 at 12:21 am by Huggy Bear.)
(December 31, 2017 at 7:00 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:
It still causes defects that threaten the whole wolf population over the long term. I would say that's pretty massive you know because they will go extinct unless new outside wolves are introduced to increase genetic diversity . Your clearly picking and choosing what you wanna take from this . The fact is the wolves are threatened by inbreeding it's not healthy nor is it producing a permanent stable population .So MY case is proven and your sloppy cherry picking of science to support your fairytales is the thing that's eaten it .
Quote:Inbreeding does not seem to have hurt the Scandinavian population so far, but Flagstad says there have been some effects.
Counter
Quote:For long-term survival, Flagstad believes that it is important that new wolves come in from the outside world.
Quote:“We have seen some individual consequences of inbreeding, such as dental defects, skeletal defects and sterility in some males. But we see the consequence of inbreeding most clearly in the size of the family groups,” Flagstad said. The size of family groups is determined each winter by examining tracks and scat. "What we see is that parents who are severely inbred have fewer offspring. A smaller proportion of their pups grow to adulthood. The close kinship seems to affect the survival of pups and reproduction in adult wolves,” says Flagstad.
Again your selective reading at it's finest the wolves are not healthy and are under threat for their survival . Again my original point stands . Inbreeding threatens the wolf . Therefore this does not support the idea two creatures can create a thriving stable population . And is indeed a massive defect caused by inbreeding .
Quote:Inbreeding (mating between relatives) is a major concern for conservation as it decreases individual fitness and can increase the risk of population extinction.
Quote:Small populations are particularly vulnerable to extinction due to demographic stochasticity, reduced genetic variation and inbreeding depression1,2,3,4. Inbreeding (mating between relatives) in small populations can lead to decreased individual fitness and population growth rate, owing to the expression of deleterious recessive alleles and increased homozygosity at loci with heterozygous advantage3,5
Quote: Our ability to detect this increase was likely facilitated by having considered multiple kinds of anomaly. Many of the found anomalies are likely associated with inbreeding or some form of genetic deterioration
Quote:Researchers from Uppsala University and others have for the first time determined the full genetic consequences of intense inbreeding in a threatened species.
Quote:The Scandinavian wolf population was founded in the 1980s by only two individuals. This has subsequently led to intense inbreeding, which is considered a long-term threat to the population.
You realize you just debunked yourself in your own post right?
(December 31, 2017 at 7:00 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Inbreeding threatens the wolf . Therefore this does not support the idea two creatures can create a thriving stable population . And is indeed a massive defect caused by inbreeding .
(December 31, 2017 at 7:00 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:
Quote:The Scandinavian wolf population was founded in the 1980s by only two individuals. This has subsequently led to intense inbreeding, which is considered a long-term threat to the population.
*Emphasis mine *
I see Kevin couldn't wait to cosign your tomfoolery, both of you really need to quit while you're behind.
FFS, Huggy, can you comprehend the rest? Inbreeding is causing defects and shrinking the size of litters. And that's in less than 40 years. It will only get worse, to the point of extinction, unless outside breeding stock is introduced.
Which is exactly what we've been saying all along. Yeah, a population of animals can start with just one mating pair, but in the long run it won't survive. The genetic deficiencies will simply snowball until what's left is some combination of broken, weak, and/or sterile. And it's not like this is some kind of profound knowledge. Livestock farmers have known this forever.
The fact is if these wolves were on your Ark, none would exist by now.
January 1, 2018 at 12:38 am (This post was last modified: January 1, 2018 at 12:49 am by Amarok.)
Seriously huggy you are a moron . Just because two wolves CAN produce offspring . DOES not mean they will breed a healthy stable population . Instead as all the fucking evidence i just presented to you . It will result in drive toward genetic degradation and extinction. Which is a defect caused by in inbreeding .Now fuckwit times that by your absurd belief that every species started out as only 2 animals . And use that stunted pink thing between your ears.
(January 1, 2018 at 12:24 am)KevinM1 Wrote: FFS, Huggy, can you comprehend the rest? Inbreeding is causing defects and shrinking the size of litters. And that's in less than 40 years. It will only get worse, to the point of extinction, unless outside breeding stock is introduced.
Which is exactly what we've been saying all along. Yeah, a population of animals can start with just one mating pair, but in the long run it won't survive. The genetic deficiencies will simply snowball until what's left is some combination of broken, weak, and/or sterile. And it's not like this is some kind of profound knowledge. Livestock farmers have known this forever.
The fact is if these wolves were on your Ark, none would exist by now.
No i fully expect him to continue to try and bullshit the his way out . But i really don't care . The creatures on the Ark would all be dead by now or being extremely generous on the verge of extinction. The only way out is proposing a miracle or pushing his ignorance of the difference of cellular evolution .
(January 1, 2018 at 12:24 am)KevinM1 Wrote: FFS, Huggy, can you comprehend the rest? Inbreeding is causing defects and shrinking the size of litters. And that's in less than 40 years. It will only get worse, to the point of extinction, unless outside breeding stock is introduced.
Which is exactly what we've been saying all along. Yeah, a population of animals can start with just one mating pair, but in the long run it won't survive. The genetic deficiencies will simply snowball until what's left is some combination of broken, weak, and/or sterile. And it's not like this is some kind of profound knowledge. Livestock farmers have known this forever.
The fact is if these wolves were on your Ark, none would exist by now.
By the way very good summary
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
January 1, 2018 at 1:07 am (This post was last modified: January 1, 2018 at 1:21 am by Huggy Bear.)
(January 1, 2018 at 12:38 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Seriously huggy you are a moron . Just because two wolves CAN produce offspring . DOES not mean they will breed a healthy stable population . Instead as all the fucking evidence i just presented to you . It will result in drive toward genetic degradation and extinction. Which is a defect caused by in inbreeding .
Your claim:
(December 31, 2017 at 7:00 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Inbreeding threatens the wolf . Therefore this does not support the idea two creatures can create a thriving stable population . And is indeed a massive defect caused by inbreeding .
Again, these quotes are all from YOUR OWN SOURCES.
(December 31, 2017 at 7:00 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:
Quote:The Scandinavian wolf population was founded in the 1980s by only two individuals. This has subsequently led to intense inbreeding, which is considered a long-term threat to the population.
Quote:Inbreeding does not seem to have hurt the Scandinavian population so far, but Flagstad says there have been some effects.
*emphasis mine*
It states CLEARLY that "inbreeding does not seem to have hurt the Scandinavian population so far". If the population were rife with defects then that statement makes no sense.
Are you implying that your own source is incorrect?
(January 1, 2018 at 12:38 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Now fuckwit times that by your absurd belief that every species started out as only 2 animals . And use that stunted pink thing between your ears.
Can you math?
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. - Genesis 7
14 clean beasts, 4 unclean...
Also the only requirement was they be of the same species (in order to produce fertile offspring), they didn't need to belong to the same breed so to speak.
