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Nihilism
#41
RE: Nihilism
(January 12, 2018 at 11:49 pm)Hammy Wrote: My bold.

Regardless of metaphysics, there are times when we are confronted with two or more alternatives. When this happens, we take time to deliberate, and following this deliberation, make a selection. There is a name for this phenomenon: choosing. Hard incompatibilists insist that any choice one way or the other is caused by antecedent states and events, but they acknowledge that a deliberation process still occurs--whether one is in control of it or not.

plato.stanford Wrote:Determinism might imply that our choices and efforts have earlier sufficient causes; it does not imply that we don’t make choices or that our choices and efforts are causally impotent. Determinism is consistent with the fact that our deliberation, choices and efforts are part of the causal process whereby our bodies move and cause further effects in the world. And a cause is the kind of thing that “makes a difference” (Sartorio 2005). If I raise my hand because I chose to do so, then it’s true, ceteris paribus, that if my choice had not occurred, my hand-raising would not have occurred.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incom...llIncoDete
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#42
RE: Nihilism
(January 12, 2018 at 11:44 pm)Hammy Wrote:
(January 12, 2018 at 11:13 am)pool the matey Wrote: Free will is real lol go have fun

It's as real as a square circle.

I'm of the opinion that it is indeed real, for example as I'm typing this message I have the free will to decide whether I'll post this or not and I'm choosing to post it. 😊
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#43
RE: Nihilism
(January 11, 2018 at 11:32 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(January 11, 2018 at 6:23 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Do you think that determinism/incompatibilism inevitably results in fatalism?

Or were you simply remarking that fatalism is much more likely to follow from determinism than nihilism?

"Fatalism" has two connotations and I think both apply. Determinism is about one's fate being inevitable, which by definition makes it fatalistic; however, I was thinking of the more subjective psychological state of being resigned to one's fate.

You and I might disagree on metaphysics, but we both seem to agree that the "subjective psychological state of being resigned to one's fate" is unhealthy. Spinoza, a hard determinist writes the following in Ethics:

Baruch Spinoza Wrote:Again, as virtue is nothing else but action in accordance with the laws of one's own nature (IV. Def. viii.), and as no one endeavours to preserve his own being, except in accordance with the laws of his own nature, it follows, first, that the foundation of virtue is the endeavour to preserve one's own being, and that happiness consists in man's power of preserving his own being; secondly, that virtue is to be desired for its own sake, and that there is nothing more excellent or more useful to us, for the sake of which we should desire it; thirdly and lastly, that suicides are weak-minded, and are overcome by external causes repugnant to their nature.

In other words, virtue (or acting in accordance with one's own nature) spurs one to self-preservation, while weak-mindedness results in suicide. It is interesting to see how much of an anti-fatalist Spinoza is considering how hard he bangs the drum of hard determinism. (Anti-fatalist in regards to fatalism as a psychological state, that is.) It just demonstrates that, whether our fates are determined or not, one way of thinking is healthy, the other not.
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#44
RE: Nihilism
Hard determinism doesn't necessarily lead to fatalism, but it does logically lead to nihilism (at least the way I understand it). However, if like me, you adhere to the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, you are obliged to accepted that fatalism (at least to some degree) is logical. It means there is nothing you can do to 100% prevent any possible future from occurring. You might be in a world where a terrible future awaits you (we don't know for sure), and (if so) there is nothing you can do about it. Hell, even with other interpretations of quantum mechanics (Copenhagen), this can be the case as well, as futures are probabilistically determined rather than 100% determined by antecedents. The cosmos is perhaps more disturbing than is commonly thought.

That said, I do agree it is important to find healthy psychological means to cope with the implications of such views, but without having to delude ourselves. My way of coping with this is simply to just go with the flow and don't dwell on worst case scenarios that are unlikely to occur in this universe. Also, just because all metaphysical possibilities may be actualized does not mean we know with 100% certainty what are all metaphysical possibilities. It may be the fact, that given who I am, there are scary/disturbing futures that may never happen to me because they would be metaphysically impossible (impossible under certain contexts). Perhaps my doppelgangers (with exact genetics and experiences up till their equivalent of my current moment) will never in one universe be as heinous as, say, Hitler because the way I'm conditioned would absolutely never lead to that kind of outcome. I hope so.

(January 12, 2018 at 11:03 am)Hammy Wrote: It's fine to be irrational as long as you can function. I do think it's stupid and I would rather be rational though.

I don't believe change is actual (I think it's an illusion). Doesn't mean it's irrational to live life seeing that change does occur experientially (even if not metaphysically).
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#45
RE: Nihilism
(January 13, 2018 at 2:41 am)Grandizer Wrote: Hard determinism doesn't necessarily lead to fatalism, but it does logically lead to nihilism (at least the way I understand it). However, if like me, you adhere to the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, you are obliged to accepted that fatalism (at least to some degree) is logical. It means there is nothing you can do to 100% prevent any possible future from occurring. You might be in a world where a terrible future awaits you (we don't know for sure), and (if so) there is nothing you can do about it. Hell, even with other interpretations of quantum mechanics (Copenhagen), this can be the case as well, as futures are probabilistically determined rather than 100% determined by antecedents. The cosmos is perhaps more disturbing than is commonly thought.

That said, I do agree it is important to find healthy psychological means to cope with the implications of such views, but without having to delude ourselves. My way of coping with this is simply to just go with the flow and don't dwell on worst case scenarios that are unlikely to occur in this universe. Also, just because all metaphysical possibilities may be actualized does not mean we know with 100% certainty what are all metaphysical possibilities. It may be the fact, that given who I am, there are scary/disturbing futures that may never happen to me because they would be metaphysically impossible (impossible under certain contexts). Perhaps my doppelgangers (with exact genetics and experiences up till their equivalent of my current moment) will never in one universe be as heinous as, say, Hitler because the way I'm conditioned would absolutely never lead to that kind of outcome. I hope so.

I borrowed this line of thinking from Pereboom:
IMO hard incompatibilism does not necessarily lead to nihilism. Considering ethics, it compels us against "moral anger." Inasmuch as moral anger is misplaced when directed toward one who is not morally responsible, the actions that follow from moral anger are themselves unethical. Moral anger assumes that such and such agent freely chose to commit certain actions, and therefore should be treated accordingly. I wouldn't consider it counter to moral thinking that a much better approach would be to consider what caused a person to commit such an action, and (rather than concentration on punishment) use that energy to work on society. Find out what is causing people to make certain choices and focus on that. As a moral objectivist, I feel right at home with my incompatibilist metaphysics. 

Hopefully that demonstrates (in principle) how determinism/incompatibilism do not necessarily lead to nihilism--at least as far as ethics is concerned.

Lol. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying if your evil twin becomes Hitler. Just ask yourself two questions:

1. Am I the one with the goatee?
2. If so, is it well-trimmed?

Big Grin
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#46
RE: Nihilism
(January 13, 2018 at 4:42 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(January 13, 2018 at 2:41 am)Grandizer Wrote: Hard determinism doesn't necessarily lead to fatalism, but it does logically lead to nihilism (at least the way I understand it). However, if like me, you adhere to the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, you are obliged to accepted that fatalism (at least to some degree) is logical. It means there is nothing you can do to 100% prevent any possible future from occurring. You might be in a world where a terrible future awaits you (we don't know for sure), and (if so) there is nothing you can do about it. Hell, even with other interpretations of quantum mechanics (Copenhagen), this can be the case as well, as futures are probabilistically determined rather than 100% determined by antecedents. The cosmos is perhaps more disturbing than is commonly thought.

That said, I do agree it is important to find healthy psychological means to cope with the implications of such views, but without having to delude ourselves. My way of coping with this is simply to just go with the flow and don't dwell on worst case scenarios that are unlikely to occur in this universe. Also, just because all metaphysical possibilities may be actualized does not mean we know with 100% certainty what are all metaphysical possibilities. It may be the fact, that given who I am, there are scary/disturbing futures that may never happen to me because they would be metaphysically impossible (impossible under certain contexts). Perhaps my doppelgangers (with exact genetics and experiences up till their equivalent of my current moment) will never in one universe be as heinous as, say, Hitler because the way I'm conditioned would absolutely never lead to that kind of outcome. I hope so.

I borrowed this line of thinking from Pereboom:
IMO hard incompatibilism does not necessarily lead to nihilism. Considering ethics, it compels us against "moral anger." Inasmuch as moral anger is misplaced when directed toward one who is not morally responsible, the actions that follow from moral anger are themselves unethical. Moral anger assumes that such and such agent freely chose to commit certain actions, and therefore should be treated accordingly. I wouldn't consider it counter to moral thinking that a much better approach would be to consider what caused a person to commit such an action, and (rather than concentration on punishment) use that energy to work on society. Find out what is causing people to make certain choices and focus on that. As a moral objectivist, I feel right at home with my incompatibilist metaphysics. 

Hopefully that demonstrates (in principle) how determinism/incompatibilism do not necessarily lead to nihilism--at least as far as ethics is concerned.

Lol. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying if your evil twin becomes Hitler. Just ask yourself two questions:

1. Am I the one with the goatee?
2. If so, is it well-trimmed?

Big Grin

Agreed in terms of crime and moral action we would need to deal with environmental factors etc . I also point out that behaviors even in determinism can be modified .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#47
RE: Nihilism
(January 13, 2018 at 2:41 am)Grandizer Wrote:
(January 12, 2018 at 11:03 am)Hammy Wrote: It's fine to be irrational as long as you can function. I do think it's stupid and I would rather be rational though.

I don't believe change is actual (I think it's an illusion). Doesn't mean it's irrational to live life seeing that change does occur experientially (even if not metaphysically).

I do not understand where did this ideea of change came from ? I hear it almost every day. You realize that you change every day of your life no ? In every day you take in information and improve yourself , that means you change from the person you were before. Maybe you are saying that you can't change your personality but even that is not true , it is hard to do but it is possible.
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#48
RE: Nihilism
(January 11, 2018 at 5:13 pm)ShirkahnW Wrote: I just currently read about the problem of free will. And whilst doing that i discovered that free will doesnt actually exist. This has thrown me into some kind of Nihilistic Worldview...
Any thoughtsß

Free will does exist. It's just not what you think it is.

Have some Dennett...





And some Camus for dessert...

Nihilism is where it's at.

But ... "One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

Thumb up

(January 13, 2018 at 1:27 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: ...
plato.stanford Wrote:Determinism might imply that our choices and efforts have earlier sufficient causes; it does not imply that we don’t make choices or that our choices and efforts are causally impotent. Determinism is consistent with the fact that our deliberation, choices and efforts are part of the causal process whereby our bodies move and cause further effects in the world. And a cause is the kind of thing that “makes a difference” (Sartorio 2005). If I raise my hand because I chose to do so, then it’s true, ceteris paribus, that if my choice had not occurred, my hand-raising would not have occurred.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incom...llIncoDete

Except the hand is not raised through 'choice'.

Choice happens in the governance layer.

The movement of the arm is determined by the management software (the next turtle down).

I recently browsed a series of Searle's lectures. He made this same mistake. Much disappoint.

Dodgy
The PURPOSE of life is to replicate our DNA ................. (from Darwin)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)
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#49
RE: Nihilism
(January 13, 2018 at 4:42 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: I borrowed this line of thinking from Pereboom:
IMO hard incompatibilism does not necessarily lead to nihilism. Considering ethics, it compels us against "moral anger." Inasmuch as moral anger is misplaced when directed toward one who is not morally responsible, the actions that follow from moral anger are themselves unethical. Moral anger assumes that such and such agent freely chose to commit certain actions, and therefore should be treated accordingly. I wouldn't consider it counter to moral thinking that a much better approach would be to consider what caused a person to commit such an action, and (rather than concentration on punishment) use that energy to work on society. Find out what is causing people to make certain choices and focus on that. As a moral objectivist, I feel right at home with my incompatibilist metaphysics.

I actually agree with this.

Quote:Hopefully that demonstrates (in principle) how determinism/incompatibilism do not necessarily lead to nihilism--at least as far as ethics is concerned.

I must be thinking of a different kind of nihilism then. I agree that determinism does not lead to moral nihilism. I was thinking of the more existential type.

Quote:Lol. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying if your evil twin becomes Hitler. Just ask yourself two questions:

1. Am I the one with the goatee?
2. If so, is it well-trimmed?

Big Grin

Uh, did you mean mustache? Big Grin

Seriously, though, forget doppelgangers, and assume Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics (where things happen randomly), doesn't it mean that the future is at least partly random instead of determined fully by antecedents?

(January 13, 2018 at 5:35 am)notimportant1234 Wrote:
(January 13, 2018 at 2:41 am)Grandizer Wrote:

I don't believe change is actual (I think it's an illusion). Doesn't mean it's irrational to live life seeing that change does occur experientially (even if not metaphysically).

I do not understand where did this ideea of change came from ? I hear it almost every day. You realize that you change every day of your life no ? In every day you take in information and improve yourself , that means you change from the person you were before. Maybe you are saying that you can't change your personality but even that is not true , it is hard to do but it is possible.

Sorry, we're discussing different things here. I'm not talking about behavioral change only, but rather change overall at the ultimate level. I'm referring to one of the implications of eternalism (a philosophy of time) whereby flow of time is an illusion and nothing really is changing.
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#50
RE: Nihilism
(January 13, 2018 at 6:26 am)Grandizer Wrote: I must be thinking of a different kind of nihilism then. I agree that determinism does not lead to moral nihilism. I was thinking of the more existential type.

google dictionary Wrote:ni·hil·ism
ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
PHILOSOPHY
extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence.

Well we have two definitions here, I was leaning toward the first with my comments. Besides, if one is generally a nihilist, he must also be a moral nihilist.



Quote:Seriously, though, forget doppelgangers, and assume Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics (where things happen randomly), doesn't it mean that the future is at least partly random instead of determined fully by antecedents?

That's why contemporary metaphysics hardly considers hard determinism any longer. The replacement position is hard incompatibilism.

The incompatibilist position is: regardless of whether the universe is determined, there is no free will because all choices are caused by antecedent states and events. This allows for some indeterminism due to wave functions, but rejects the notion that randomness somehow brings free will into play. If there are non-determined events causing your actions, you are just as unfree as if determined events were.
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