Are you "sympathizing" with this guy shellB? Does that mean you're an alt right sympathizer? Just asking. Asking for a friend.

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No wait. Never mind that. Let's not turn that into a meme. Sorry. Carry on.

(January 16, 2018 at 12:58 am)J a c k Wrote: What if one of them has awkward sex one day and then the girl or boy they’re with runs off and tells the world that they’re a creep who made them uncomfortable, only for the world to respond by labeling them as predators?

First, I agree with Shell and others that Aziz isn't guilty of assault.

That said, maybe men - for their own protection if nothing else - shouldn't be trying to score on a first date. Or a second.

If a man's been going out with a woman for a month or two and progressing toward sex, it's less likely such charges will be made, and if they are, less likely that they'll stick.

This scenario was very hard to read about. I don't even know how many times slight versions of this have happened in my dating career.
I don't know if he is guilty of sexual assault, let me say this up front. I do not have enough information to make that judgment. He sounds like a clueless douchebag from her account, and he clearly does not understand what went wrong until she pointed it out to him, and that's not fair either. His account is credible as well. But he was clearly not respecting her, having literally chased her around repeatedly, with this culminating her in tears in an Uber car. I've been in a few uncomfortable situations where he was clearly not going to take no for an answer. It happens a lot. Things are not always so black and white in these scenarios. It's very easy to say "She should have..." or "I would have..." but the truth is, only they were there and understood what was happening.

Consent is everything. She didn't consent. He persisted. I am pretty sure she's beating herself up at this moment about not having been clearer with him at the time. 

This demonstrates, to me, a cultural issue we have. Women are sweet and passive and compliant and demure, and if we're not, we're psycho sluts from Hell. Men are expected to get the girl, to do some work to pursue her.

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(January 16, 2018 at 6:38 am)Industrial Lad Wrote: It's creepy but not sexual assault. But, I would say when a woman starts talking about feeling forced, it's time to take step back.

Yes.

Whether Aziz is on the autism spectrum or not is irrelevant. He made her so uncomfortable she was at a loss as to how to respond to his persisting approach. It's easy to fault her for not saying "no" from the get go, but perhaps she didn't want to say "no" directly for fear of coming off as impolite or disrespectful.

I do empathize with Aziz (if indeed it is true he's on the spectrum), but he's a smart and high functioning guy nevertheless, and should have known better. Hopefully a lesson for Aziz and others like him: No more trying to imitate James Bond and no more applying PUA bullshit you read online. You're either a natural and good with social cues or you're not (in which case, ask for consent first). Men on the autism spectrum generally like to be explicitly told what other people want from them, so this shouldn't have been any different.

I empathize with Aziz, but it's not he who was the victim. It was the woman he made uncomfortable that was the victim here.

This is why I usually assume someone isn't interested until they make it *very* clear that they are. But, of course, that often comes across as *my* being uninterested, so they never feel good making an advance.

So, what are people supposed to do if they are interested and not sure if the other person is? if they ask, that is seen as pressure, even if they accept a 'no'. And if there is anything like a power difference, that is hugely bad.

We also seem to think that discomfort is the same as not wanting to continue. I know I have sometimes felt uncomfortable *and* still wanted to continue. My discomfort doesn't make the other person an assaulter.

And don't forget teasing: a means of showing attraction, but preserving face if the other person isn't attracted. How often is *that* misinterpreted? Especially when mixed with discomfort but wanting to continue?

But are we really saying there can't be a legitimate attraction between people at different power levels?

So, yes, it would be good if everyone only had sex when they absolutely knew they wanted to and were absolutely sure the other person wants to and everyone has signed legal documents to that effect. But real people do things they don't necessarily feel comfortable with but still want to do. Real people send mixed signals and those mixed signals are misinterpreted by other real people. And, sometimes, people are not sexually compatible and the sex is bad. Sometimes real people are uncomfortable, still want to go ahead, and regret it afterwards.

I don't know what the solution is here. Real people also get assaulted. Real people also are forced into sex they don't want. Real people are also ignored when they say no. I think there is a difference between being forced and being uncomfortable, but still going ahead. But there are situations where it isn't perfectly clear.

So, what do we expect from real people? Perfect communication at all times? Really? perfect knowledge of self at all times? Really? Perfect understanding of signals put off by others? Really?

All I can say is that I will wait until I get a non-mixed signal. But I am married (and consensually non-monogamous), and I am available, but most people would assume I am not, even if they are interested. How is that to be managed?

Being a strong confident assertive woman is great. But I don't know if the consequences of not being one should be dudes getting to stick whatever they want wherever they want.

It's definitely a status quo that seems like guys came up with.

Yeah, that's not a biased article at all. 🙄

(January 16, 2018 at 10:50 am)wallym Wrote: Being a strong confident assertive woman is great. But I don't know if the consequences of not being one should be dudes getting to stick whatever they want wherever they want.

It's definitely a status quo that seems like guys came up with.

No, that shouldn’t be the consequence and isn’t what happened.

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(January 16, 2018 at 11:10 am)pool the matey Wrote: Yeah, that's not a biased article at all. 🙄

What’s the bias?

(January 15, 2018 at 9:18 pm)chimp3 Wrote: In this public discourse we are having about sexual assault it is important not to infantilize anyone.

I think we do that too much in raising our girls, wanting to shield them from sex. It does a number on some of them to the point where they can't fully say yes .. or no, it appears. I really do think we have to look at what messages girls are raised with.

Seriously, you really think that's an unbiased article? It's obviously favoring that dude and putting that chick in a bad light. And who said "non verbal cues" have to mean "mind reading", that is so bizarre, you can tell someone no with just a look. In fact just look at this

Quote:Dr. Albert Mehrabian, author of Silent Messages, conducted several studies on nonverbal communication. He found that 7% of any message is conveyed through words, 38% through certain vocal elements, and 55% through nonverbal elements (facial expressions, gestures, posture, etc).

and you'll know "nonverbal communication" is a huge part of communication. It will be extremely hard to communicate with no nonverbal communication, and you're really going to tell me an actor of all people is so bad with non verbal communication that he couldn't read the facial expressions and other non verbal signs in that situation? Cmon. I side with that chick on this one. Guy comes off sketchy.

Edit: Definitely sounds like a sexual predator to me.