(January 31, 2018 at 1:33 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 1:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Really? That's interesting. I certainly can't comprehend a different dimension at all.

You know, it's one thing to ask people to believe something that can't be proven. It's quite another to ask them to believe something that can't be comprehended. Who initially formulated the doctrine if he himself could not comprehend it?

"Meh, nobody understands it. Just believe it, okay?"

If you're going to believe in God, it's perfectly logical that there will be things that are beyond our comprehension. God is supposed to be a much more advanced entity than us, and it makes sense that there would be much associated with Him and how He works than we can fully wrap our heads around.

(January 31, 2018 at 1:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 1:18 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Except it's not the same as trying to comprehend a different dimension. I can comprehend a fourth dimension just fine, (and appreciate it as logically possible) it's the visualizing part that is impossible.

The Trinity, on the other hand, I can't even conceive of as logically possible. If A, B, and C are each D, then A = B = C = D, but per Trinity doctrine, A and B and C are not equal to each other, even though they are each equal to D. Seems like it's clearly violating an axiom or two.

Really? That's interesting. I certainly can't comprehend a different dimension at all.

It's actually not that hard. Just as a three-dimensional object casts a two-dimensional shadow, a four-dimensional object will cast a three-dimensional one.

This video is quite long, but much of it is just presentation as it's a lecture given at the Royal Institution, and the speaker is very engaging.





Now, this is the sort of thing that is actually meant by the usual throwaway buzzwords like 'dimensions' (and the other bastardised term 'energy'). Appealing to real scientific concepts to impart layers of mystery to folktales only creates more of the very questions it's meant to deflect.

(January 31, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.

The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.

The Father is fully the one God.

The Son is fully the one God.

The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.

They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?

Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.

Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe).

I don't think that the doctrine of the Trinity was deduced logically, but rather it is observed in scripture.  That God is three and God is one.  I don't understand what you are trying to logically make sense of.... I think that you may be trying to use the wrong tool.    However I think you did well in your description.

Mormons have been sufficiently confused and confusing about their version of the Trinity that they had to issue a statement declaring the Holy Spirit is NOT Mrs. God.


I've certainly had indigestion over the father/son aspects of it. There seems to be no coherent explanation for any of it, and the father/son analogy/metaphor is particularly and specifically flawed. I'd assert failing to understand the Trinity (even if it's impossible to do so) would have negative consequences regarding ones chances of achieving Salvation.

(January 31, 2018 at 1:45 pm)Cyberman Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 1:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Really? That's interesting. I certainly can't comprehend a different dimension at all.

It's actually not that hard. Just as a three-dimensional object casts a two-dimensional shadow, a four-dimensional object will cast a three-dimensional one.

This video is quite long, but much of it is just presentation as it's a lecture given at the Royal Institution, and the speaker is very engaging.





Now, this is the sort of thing that is actually meant by the usual throwaway buzzwords like 'dimensions' (and the other bastardised term 'energy'). Appealing to real scientific concepts to impart layers of mystery to folktales only creates more of the very questions it's meant to deflect.

I just can't imagine that 4th dimension. It's also hard to wrap my head around black holes, infinity, etc. There is a lot we don't know and can't fully comprehend about the universe, but that is expected. So it is with God.

Quote:King James Bible

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Luke 22:42

Um, who the fuck was jesus talking to?

(January 31, 2018 at 3:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I just can't imagine that 4th dimension. It's also hard to wrap my head around black holes, infinity, etc. There is a lot we don't know and can't fully comprehend about the universe, but that is expected. So it is with God.

Sounds more like sleight of hand to me, palming the god card into where it's not warranted. We actually have pretty sound justifications for those things you listed, bar one which is not only unjustified, it is also the ultimate discursive dead end. Which is why I gave the Simpsons quote ("a wizard did it") earlier. It's all a big mystery, beyond our ken; stop asking questions.

(January 31, 2018 at 3:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 1:45 pm)Cyberman Wrote: It's actually not that hard. Just as a three-dimensional object casts a two-dimensional shadow, a four-dimensional object will cast a three-dimensional one.

This video is quite long, but much of it is just presentation as it's a lecture given at the Royal Institution, and the speaker is very engaging.





Now, this is the sort of thing that is actually meant by the usual throwaway buzzwords like 'dimensions' (and the other bastardised term 'energy'). Appealing to real scientific concepts to impart layers of mystery to folktales only creates more of the very questions it's meant to deflect.

I just can't imagine that 4th dimension. It's also hard to wrap my head around black holes, infinity, etc. There is a lot we don't know and can't fully comprehend about the universe, but that is expected. So it is with God.

Here:

two dimensions: (x,y)

three dimensions: (x,y,z)

four dimensions: (x,y,z,w)

eight dimensions: (x,y,z,w,s,t,u,v)

distance in two dimensions: sqrt{ (x-x')^2 +(y-y')^2 }

distance in three dimensions: sqrt{ (x-x')^2 +(y-y')^2 +(z-z')^2 }

distance in four dimensions: sqrt{ (x-x')^2 +(y-y')^2 +(z-z')^2 +(w-w')^2 }

distance in eight dimensions: sqrt{ (x-x')^2 +(y-y')^2 +(z-z')^2 +(w-w')^2 +(s-s')^2 +(t-t')^2 +(u-u')^2 +(v-v')^2 }

A one-dimensional line in two dimensions: y=ax+b

A two-dimensional plane in three dimensions: z=ax+by+c

A three dimensional 'hyper-plane' in four dimensions: w=ax+by+cz+d

A seven dimensional 'hyper-plane' in eight dimensions: v=ax+by+cz+dw+es+ft+gu+h.

Things generalize pretty easily as you go up: just add more variables.

(January 31, 2018 at 12:52 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Let's see if we can make some sense out of this.

The Trinity, in the mainstream sense, refers to the one God who is three Persons, each being fully the one God, yet distinct from each other.

The Father is fully the one God.

The Son is fully the one God.

The Holy Spirit is fully the one God.

They are all one and the same God, yet three distinct Persons of God?

Of course, many of us are aware of the history behind how the Trinity doctrine came to be, but let's overlook that for the sake of argument and let's see how theists who are all about using logic can make logical sense out of this one.

Remember, the Persons of the Trinity are each the one and only God; they are not aspects/states of the one God (i.e., modalism) or three gods in one (e.g., as Mormons believe).

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are nothing more than different titles held by the same God.

God = God above us
Son = God with us
Holy Spirit = God in us

Did not God tell Moses that he was I AM? Did not Jesus state that "before Abraham was born, I am"?

Jesus was God in human flesh, hence why he was called Emmanuel which means God with us.

Also does not the bible state that Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily?

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. - Colossians 2:9

If Jesus is part of a trinity then that would make him part of the Godhead not the fullness of it.

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(January 31, 2018 at 3:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I just can't imagine that 4th dimension. It's also hard to wrap my head around black holes, infinity, etc. There is a lot we don't know and can't fully comprehend about the universe, but that is expected. So it is with God.

The 4th dimension simply put, is time.

If a 2 dimensional being were to observe a human he would only see the human in cross sections:


the shaded areas are what the the 2d character sees but that obviously isn't the whole picture, and as the human continues to fall through the image would be constantly shifting in form.

So if you think about it, if time is the 4th dimension then we being 3D creatures experience time in cross sections, since to us time is linear, a 4th dimensional being would be able to move back and forth through time at will, since past and future cease to exist.

If you've ever watched Star Trek: Deep Space Nine they basically had the concept of 4th dimensional beings referred to as wormhole aliens to whom existed outside of linear time.

(January 31, 2018 at 1:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 1:18 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Except it's not the same as trying to comprehend a different dimension. I can comprehend a fourth dimension just fine, (and appreciate it as logically possible) it's the visualizing part that is impossible.

The Trinity, on the other hand, I can't even conceive of as logically possible. If A, B, and C are each D, then A = B = C = D, but per Trinity doctrine, A and B and C are not equal to each other, even though they are each equal to D. Seems like it's clearly violating an axiom or two.

Really? That's interesting. I certainly can't comprehend a different dimension at all.

I'm sure you can do it if you give it some thought.

Think of time as the fourth dimension. Right now, let's say you're at t = 345. After a little while from now, you'll be at a different t that is a few numbers higher (say, 367, for example).

Now, think of parallel universes. That might be an indicator of an even higher-level dimension.

Either way, dealing cognitively with higher dimensions is not the same as dealing cognitively with the Trinity. Even if you can't comprehend the fourth dimension or higher, as long as they're not logically problematic, then this is just a problem of limited human intuition. The Trinity is different; not only is it counterintuitive, it violates logic.

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(January 31, 2018 at 3:00 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that the doctrine of the Trinity was deduced logically, but rather it is observed in scripture.

I would say there was some logical derivation (or rather an attempt at it) that happened, using premises in the Scriptures. It's just that the conclusion itself defies logic.

Quote:That God is three and God is one.  I don't understand what you are trying to logically make sense of.... I think that you may be trying to use the wrong tool.    However I think you did well in your description.

You don't see how the way I described the Trinity (which you agree is an apt description) defies logic?

If F = G, and S = G, and H = G, is it true that F = S = H?