(January 31, 2018 at 7:42 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 5:21 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: And, more to your point; yes he did give an advantage when he consciously decided to make the world exactly as it is, knowing how things would shake out. Your ad-hoc rationalizations to the effect of, ‘god couldn’t have done better, and couldn’t do anything differently,’ are exactly that: Rationalizations, in the face of an obviously unjust system created by a supposed ‘perfectly just’ entity.

No, I am sure the are near infinite worlds he could have created. You would have to show that the world that he did choose to create was not the one with the most overall good given that humans have free will. No rationalization needed. No counter argument will hold up.

Well, no.  I’m not going to just give free will to the argument. That’s my whole point.  But you’re right; there are a near infinite number of worlds he could have created.  The onus is on you to demonstrate your premise that a world with free will, that inevitably results in billions of souls suffering in eternal spiritual agony, is better than any other alternative, including worlds without free will.  So far, the strongest you’ve offered is that, “it seems” to be that way.  Better for who?  And why?  

But, coming back to reality, of course you have no possible way of demonstrating such a premise without first demonstrating that the proposed creator exists in the first place. Otherwise, all of this is nothing more than a philosophical “Choose Your Own Adventure”.

Quote:I didn't make any such statements about God being incomprehensible in this thread (or in any other I can remember) so any claims of inconsistency are imagined.

I do recall you having said as much in previous threads, but since I can’t remember which ones, I’ll wipe the slate clean of that charge and stick with what you have said in this thread specifically.  Apologies.

Quote:The fact that you are literally complaining that I have a well-formed arguments with philosophical underpinnings is amusing.

I disagree that you have a well-formed argument, for the reasons I have stated above.

If "jesus" killers didn't go to heaven then it's difficult to see how anyone who lived before the story of christ was told or written could have.  They couldn't possibly have died in the mortal sin of having known about godman but rejecting him..they were literally making him at the time...according to his very own will..to hear the story told.

It seems like trying to make sense of the insensible must be downright exhausting. Best not to think too hard I guess, just have faith. This is known as the utility of confusing doctrine. The RCC were pioneers in this regard, cvredit where it;s due. Long before we understood how the phenomena was achieved, they had learned (or accidentally stumbled upon) it to great effect.

(January 31, 2018 at 8:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Does feeling remorse for wrongdoings, acknowledging that you are not perfect, and wanting to be better, in and of itself, count as some sort of recognition of the need for redemption?

Once the need is recognized, sure, that would be a step in the right direction. A person still needs to look outside themselves for both salvation and forgiveness. As the Schoolmen said, "you cannot give what you do not have." That is why atheists cannot go to Heaven. They have arrogated unto themselves a power they do not have - the ability to absolve sin.

I haven;t met many atheists who claimed to possess or were even remotely interested in the power to remove sin.  Most of us would rather be or become better people, Neo. Sin is a word that believers use when they want to pass their own bigotry off as ethics and then blame it on a god. There's no point in pretending otherwise, and no need to address or "remove" it in order to be or become a better person.

(January 31, 2018 at 11:39 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That is why atheists cannot go to Heaven. They have arrogated unto themselves a power they do not have - the ability to absolve sin.

Tell us, what is the meaning of the word "sin" in the absence of a god?

'Salvation' is another term that holds no meaning to us. There's no soul to save.

If atheists can still get to go to heaven as atheists, then all the nonsense "Apostle" Paul said is rendered moot. Perhaps Catholics don't think Romans is part of God's written word?

(January 31, 2018 at 11:45 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 1:08 am)Astreja Wrote: The doctrines that have been built up around Christianity are insanely complicated...

The basics are so simple that a child can understand them. We have collectively and personally offended the moral order of the universe and are broken. God has given us the opportunity to be made whole again if only we are willing to accept His offer.

Everything else is gravy.

Your god offers us an ultimatum. I don't see that as encouraging, especially when the ultimatum is hell if we don't love him or accept his terms. That's narcissistic and pathological thinking by a crazed individual. 

Personally, I was broken for years while being a Christian. Not once did your god ever lift me up during my time of acceptance, even when I did put all my problems in "His hands". Any betterment to any situation I was going through, happened only as a direct result of actual live people helping or me working hard to improve my situation. No god needed. Therefore, he isn't needed to make me "whole". 

Besides - no one has the right to call me broken but myself. I don't need the opinions of some god, translated by a mere mortal, when that god can't even confront me face to face on his own. He's a puny god if he exists, simply because he needs humans to do his bidding. 

And please don't tell me that I was "doing it wrong" or that I wasn't a True Christian™. That's another favorite go-to for theists. They like to further blame non-believers for believing wrong. A child who gets beaten on a daily basis, reaches out and prays to god for the beating to stop. The abuse doesn't stop. Your god fails to intervene. How exactly is that the fault of the child? Oh I know! He/she prayed wrong or didn't love god or believe enough in the "right" way. This is the type of garbage that your religion has brainwashed you to believe. Your god failed to deliver an innocent child to the safety of others, yet somehow it's the child's fault. And not a single believer thinks that anything is wrong with sending this sort of message to children.

The earth is filled with starving kids, kids who didn't ask to be born, let alone be faced with bloated bellies and daily pain from hunger, while being feasted on by flies because they smell like death. Your god could feed them, if he wanted to. He could turn deserts into lush, green, fertile land, so that it could be farmed and feed thousands. 

But if he's real, he's narcissistic because he'd rather accept people who bow down and worship him out of some blind devotion, instead of absolving this place from hunger or disease or disaster. If he's real, he's a prideful god because it's all about him. Fuck the future generations of "his children". Let's punish them for no good reason. Let's brainwash and indoctrinate children into believing they were born with sin. 

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather continue to use logic and reason, knowing that science trumps your god every time. When he can re-grow a limb without science getting involved, give me a call.

(February 1, 2018 at 7:05 am)Joods Wrote:

(January 31, 2018 at 11:45 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The basics are so simple that a child can understand them. We have collectively and personally offended the moral order of the universe and are broken. God has given us the opportunity to be made whole again if only we are willing to accept His offer.

Everything else is gravy.

Your god offers us an ultimatum. I don't see that as encouraging, especially when the ultimatum is hell if we don't love him or accept his terms. That's narcissistic and pathological thinking by a crazed individual. 

Personally, I was broken for years while being a Christian. Not once did your god ever lift me up during my time of acceptance, even when I did put all my problems in "His hands". Any betterment to any situation I was going through, happened only as a direct result of actual live people helping or me working hard to improve my situation. No god needed. Therefore, he isn't needed to make me "whole". 

Besides - no one has the right to call me broken but myself. I don't need the opinions of some god, translated by a mere mortal, when that god can't even confront me face to face on his own. He's a puny god if he exists, simply because he needs humans to do his bidding. 

And please don't tell me that I was "doing it wrong" or that I wasn't a True Christian™. That's another favorite go-to for theists. They like to further blame non-believers for believing wrong. A child who gets beaten on a daily basis, reaches out and prays to god for the beating to stop. The abuse doesn't stop. Your god fails to intervene. How exactly is that the fault of the child? Oh I know! He/she prayed wrong or didn't love god or believe enough in the "right" way. This is the type of garbage that your religion has brainwashed you to believe. Your god failed to deliver an innocent child to the safety of others, yet somehow it's the child's fault. And not a single believer thinks that anything is wrong with sending this sort of message to children.

The earth is filled with starving kids, kids who didn't ask to be born, let alone be faced with bloated bellies and daily pain from hunger, while being feasted on by flies because they smell like death. Your god could feed them, if he wanted to. He could turn deserts into lush, green, fertile land, so that it could be farmed and feed thousands. 

But if he's real, he's narcissistic because he'd rather accept people who bow down and worship him out of some blind devotion, instead of absolving this place from hunger or disease or disaster. If he's real, he's a prideful god because it's all about him. Fuck the future generations of "his children". Let's punish them for no good reason. Let's brainwash and indoctrinate children into believing they were born with sin. 

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather continue to use logic and reason, knowing that science trumps your god every time. When he can re-grow a limb without science getting involved, give me a call.

Of course, that all makes sense if the god is a man made construct aimed at controlling the people in a specific geographic location.

Well - man is trying to use religion to control everyone, everywhere. Sadly, that's one disease that this world will never be rid of.