(February 2, 2018 at 8:39 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: I think it would be a mistake to overlook the importance of prayer being communion with another "person."  Our minds/brains treat interaction with another consciousness differently than just interactions with objects or nature.  From Sartre's "the other's look" to studies' results showing that people are more honest if they feel they are being observed (even if only by a painting), the interaction with another activates brain circuits that aren't active when we're alone.  The idea of communion with a superbeing must have serious ramifications for what parts of the brain are active, and what neurotransmitters are released.  And that's not even to consider the areas of the brain that are sensitive to spiritual experiences (the appropriately named "God center").  It's a principle of neurology that circuits that fire together, wire together.  Thus priming the centers of the brain devoted to spiritual experience in combination with those governing interaction with others probable encourages the sensation of such spiritual undertones alongside ordinary interaction with others.  When you start to associate the two centers with each other, you create the groundwork for a profound change in the way you experience the world and the way you experience social interaction with others.

I definitely agree that the assumption of agency behind an interaction makes a powerful difference to how it's perceived. For instance with Sofia in the AI thread... or even less than that... how easy it is to instinctively assume agency and how much of a difference that makes to how something is perceived and treated (such as, with Sofia, thinking about and referring to it as a she, or responding emotionally to it etc). So in the question of god-belief, if there is real assumed agency, then yeah, it could be a different character of experience... an instinctively social experience; both in prayer, and like you say, the feeling of being watched etc... and perhaps even more powerful on account of that interaction/relationship being all-pervading in life... ie the belief that god is with you at all times, constantly watching over you, and constantly communicating with you (in the sense of signs etc)... rather than only communicating at times of 'official' prayer as it were.

What is God going to learn from someone's prayer that He didn't already know ??

(February 2, 2018 at 10:17 am)emjay Wrote:

(February 2, 2018 at 8:39 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: I think it would be a mistake to overlook the importance of prayer being communion with another "person."  Our minds/brains treat interaction with another consciousness differently than just interactions with objects or nature.  From Sartre's "the other's look" to studies' results showing that people are more honest if they feel they are being observed (even if only by a painting), the interaction with another activates brain circuits that aren't active when we're alone.  The idea of communion with a superbeing must have serious ramifications for what parts of the brain are active, and what neurotransmitters are released.  And that's not even to consider the areas of the brain that are sensitive to spiritual experiences (the appropriately named "God center").  It's a principle of neurology that circuits that fire together, wire together.  Thus priming the centers of the brain devoted to spiritual experience in combination with those governing interaction with others probable encourages the sensation of such spiritual undertones alongside ordinary interaction with others.  When you start to associate the two centers with each other, you create the groundwork for a profound change in the way you experience the world and the way you experience social interaction with others.

I definitely agree that the assumption of agency behind an interaction makes a powerful difference to how it's perceived. For instance with Sofia in the AI thread... or even less than that... how easy it is to instinctively assume agency and how much of a difference that makes to how something is perceived and treated (such as, with Sofia, thinking about and referring to it as a she, or responding emotionally to it etc). So in the question of god-belief, if there is real assumed agency, then yeah, it could be a different character of experience... an instinctively social experience; both in prayer, and like you say, the feeling of being watched etc... and perhaps even more powerful on account of that interaction/relationship being all-pervading in life... ie the belief that god is with you at all times, constantly watching over you, and constantly communicating with you (in the sense of signs etc)... rather than only communicating at times of 'official' prayer as it were.

This is yet another aspect of religion I cannot grasp. I'm an introvert IRL, so social engagement is draining for me. Even with friends and family I'm about done after 2-3 hours. So, the idea of a god constantly trying to engage me isn't a happy one. It's definitely nothing I'd want to sign up for if given a choice, even if god were real. My answer to "don't you want a relationship with god?" is a genuine "no" even before I get to the personality aspects of the entity.

(February 2, 2018 at 8:39 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: I think it would be a mistake to overlook the importance of prayer being communion with another "person."  Our minds/brains treat interaction with another consciousness differently than just interactions with objects or nature.  From Sartre's "the other's look" to studies' results showing that people are more honest if they feel they are being observed (even if only by a painting), the interaction with another activates brain circuits that aren't active when we're alone.  The idea of communion with a superbeing must have serious ramifications for what parts of the brain are active, and what neurotransmitters are released.  And that's not even to consider the areas of the brain that are sensitive to spiritual experiences (the appropriately named "God center").  It's a principle of neurology that circuits that fire together, wire together.  Thus priming the centers of the brain devoted to spiritual experience in combination with those governing interaction with others probable encourages the sensation of such spiritual undertones alongside ordinary interaction with others.  When you start to associate the two centers with each other, you create the groundwork for a profound change in the way you experience the world and the way you experience social interaction with others.

This makes sense to me.  The only question is whether you can tap the same benefits if you conceptualize the other as intrapsychic.

(February 2, 2018 at 11:50 am)KevinM1 Wrote:

(February 2, 2018 at 10:17 am)emjay Wrote: I definitely agree that the assumption of agency behind an interaction makes a powerful difference to how it's perceived. For instance with Sofia in the AI thread... or even less than that... how easy it is to instinctively assume agency and how much of a difference that makes to how something is perceived and treated (such as, with Sofia, thinking about and referring to it as a she, or responding emotionally to it etc). So in the question of god-belief, if there is real assumed agency, then yeah, it could be a different character of experience... an instinctively social experience; both in prayer, and like you say, the feeling of being watched etc... and perhaps even more powerful on account of that interaction/relationship being all-pervading in life... ie the belief that god is with you at all times, constantly watching over you, and constantly communicating with you (in the sense of signs etc)... rather than only communicating at times of 'official' prayer as it were.

This is yet another aspect of religion I cannot grasp.  I'm an introvert IRL, so social engagement is draining for me.  Even with friends and family I'm about done after 2-3 hours.  So, the idea of a god constantly trying to engage me isn't a happy one.  It's definitely nothing I'd want to sign up for if given a choice, even if god were real.  My answer to "don't you want a relationship with god?" is a genuine "no" even before I get to the personality aspects of the entity.

I think one probably important difference between assuming agency in AI vs God, is in the ways that each respond, or appear to respond. AI, such as Sofia, responds with real-time conversation, and thus can fool the senses in a very immediate, social, way, but I strongly doubt that many, if any, Christians are claiming that they have a real time back-and-forth conversation with God in prayer... like two guys chatting down the pub. Instead, the sort of 'personal relationship' on offer by Christianity seems to be a much more laid back 'leave it with me and I'll get back to you, maybe' sort of communication on God's part where communiques come in the form of insights, inspiration, 'signs' etc over a lifetime... basically anything other than a conversation... so, if you have social phobia, I think you're safe