(February 2, 2018 at 5:37 am)shadow Wrote: But that goes for literally anything made in China... all the cheap clothes and consumer goods we buy. And coal more than anything, were we to continue to use that as a power source. Your issue is with cheap Chinese manufacturing, not the energy industry or any other.

That -is- the solar industry, and if it weren't china it would be someone else.  Even china offshores the worst parts of this process.

Quote:And when you build a solar power plant, it produces electricity for decades. You dig coal out of the ground, you burn it, and then you need more coal. One has a fixed environmental cost, the other is constant. It's a massive difference.

Not always......like I said, some panels..in reality..are no more or even less environmentally sound than fossil fuels.

Don;t take my word for it, go on a google safari..let wonder lead you to knowledge. You'll end up with a more complete understanding of the barriers to a practical sustainability.

(February 2, 2018 at 5:40 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(February 2, 2018 at 5:37 am)shadow Wrote: But that goes for literally anything made in China... all the cheap clothes and consumer goods we buy. And coal more than anything, were we to continue to use that as a power source. Your issue is with cheap Chinese manufacturing, not the energy industry or any other.

That -is- the solar industry, and if it weren't china it would be someone else.  Even china offshores the worst parts of this process.

Quote:And when you build a solar power plant, it produces electricity for decades. You dig coal out of the ground, you burn it, and then you need more coal. One has a fixed environmental cost, the other is constant. It's a massive difference.

Not always......like I said, some panels..in reality..are no more or even less environmentally sound than fossil fuels.

Don;t take my word for it, go on a google safari..let wonder lead you to knowledge.  You'll end up with a more complete understanding of the barriers to a practical sustainability.

 
I know quite a lot about this industry, and if you think solar energy is less sustainable than coal, we'll have to agree to disagree. Remember that everything is manufactured somewhere - if you're telling me that repeatedly mining and burning coal has less of an environmental impact than the one time manufacturing cost of a product that lets us capture energy from the sun, I think you misunderstand entirely the value of renewable energy. It's not like coal grows on trees - it's an extraordinarily dirty product. As is oil, or natural gas, or whatever materials you use. The main difference is, with renewable energy you don't burn the resources you so laboriously produced.

There's a lot of misinformation encouraged by conventional energy companies as they try to stay relevant, but this is something that both logic and data very clearly points towards.

I don't think that solar energy is less efficient than coal.  I know that profitable solar manufacturing can be...and that the largest manufacturers, even when they beat coal, are not what you or I would consider sustainable or environmentally sound by a wide stretch.  

I think that you're expressing an academic naivety.  The market reality is that these dirty producers dominate, and will be your competition. You will never be able to compete with them in a "free market"..because all other things being equal, the exploitative model is more cost effective to a producer...that's why we do it in the first place. You will (and we already do) rely on regulation to even make the attempt, and lose.

(February 2, 2018 at 5:28 am)shadow Wrote: What is dirty solar?

It's people who are sexually attracted to the sun?

(February 2, 2018 at 5:55 am)Khemikal Wrote: I don't think that solar energy is less efficient than coal.  I know that profitable solar manufacturing can be...and that the largest manufacturers, even when they beat coal, are not what you or I would consider sustainable or environmentally sound by a wide stretch.  

I think that you're expressing an academic naivety.  The market reality is that these dirty producers dominate, and will be your competition.  You will never be able to compete with them in a "free market"..because all other things being equal, the exploitative model is more cost effective to a producer...that's why we do it in the first place.  You will (and we already do) rely on regulation to even make the attempt, and lose.

Obviously I would use the most cost effective panels or wind turbines on the market. In our current system, I agree I wouldn't be competitive otherwise because there isn't enough regulation.

You assume I'm going to be stupid about it. I'm not stupid. If that's the market I'll play. If governments don't want to regulate industry, I don't think that's right, but unless I work for a company that can afford to lobby the government, that's a constraint I accept.

What's the alternative... not building renewable energy and letting all these conventional energy cronies continue destroying the environment? Give me your practical plan for taking action on climate change, not pushing it off until next decade like most global conferences do, but right now. Because this is one industry that's moving, and it's moving extremely quickly, towards completely reshaping the world's consumption of fossil fuels, and it's doing it through a flawed free market. That's change. Not your one vote towards one of two corrupt candidates, but that's the level of change we need to fight things like climate change.

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(February 2, 2018 at 5:56 am)Hammy Wrote:

(February 2, 2018 at 5:28 am)shadow Wrote: What is dirty solar?

It's people who are sexually attracted to the sun?

That's kind of hot, I guess 

(February 2, 2018 at 6:08 am)shadow Wrote:

(February 2, 2018 at 5:56 am)Hammy Wrote: It's people who are sexually attracted to the sun?

That's kind of hot, I guess 

Yep.

And then they burn their foreskin off. The end.

(February 2, 2018 at 6:08 am)shadow Wrote: What's the alternative...

The alternative is lobbying for or supporting the lobbying efforts..or flat out grassroots campaigns, to write strong environmental regulations.  Cynically, it might mean supporting a candidate who can drive legislation even if they;re doing it for completely fucked up reasons..like personal grift. This is where your goals diverge wildly from libertarianism.  Conversely, you can build a niche market based on quality and leverage -that- to drive the gutter snipes upward chasing your profits.

There are always other forms of renewable energy, and other forms of sustainable energy, as well.

(February 2, 2018 at 2:16 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(February 2, 2018 at 1:51 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: "Profound rightward drift"?

We have living, breathing examples here on this forum of profound leftward drift ... and they're hardly the loudest voices on the left, no? I mean, who the hell pays attention to lil ole AF?

We suffer from an evacuated middle. Finger-pointing is more a symptom than a cure.

There is a profound difference between the population and the asswipes who get elected.

A recent survey found 64% in favor of legalizing pot.
62% favor gay marriage.
90% support background checks for gun purchases.
59% support abortion in all or most cases.
91% support criminal justice reform.
69% favor the Paris Climate Agreement.

None of these things can get a sniff in Congress but a further study indicated that

13% of democrats and 36% of republicunts favored "fracking" .... and guess what we have all over the fucking place.

Right, because we have allowed the top class and the religious right to bully everyone else.

(February 2, 2018 at 2:55 am)Khemikal Wrote: I don;t see compromise for the sake of compromise as a virtue.  I'm not interested in being a part of the 3rd and a 1/2 Reich.

It's not compromise for the sake of compromise that I'm advocating -- indeed, the only thing I am advocating is getting rid of the "my way or the highway" attitude amongst regular people. Not that I think that'll actually happen. Too many people are emotionally invested in that sort of horseshit.

Sucks that I have to ride the same fucking bus that their arguing has at a standstill.

Quote:My point is that the thing that's doing us in is unrepentant fractiousness.

I think complacency is the bigger problem.  100 million registered voters could not even bother to get off their asses last time around.  And look at the piece of shit we ended up with.