(February 8, 2018 at 1:41 pm)SteveII Wrote: We can conceive that it was possible that everything failed to exists and there was not anything at all.

No we can't. We can only conceive of specific things not existing. Existence itself has to exist. You're pretending like everything has to have contigent existence but that is not the case. And the totality of existence itself as a whole, necessarily does not have contingent existence. It necessarily has a necessary existence. It's not logically possible for existence itself to not exist, the same way that it's not logically possible for a square to be 5 sided.

Quote:Why "is there no logical alternative to existence?"

Because the alternative would be for existence to be non-existent? Which is a logical impossibility?

If you still don't understand watch this in full and pay attention:

(February 8, 2018 at 5:52 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(February 8, 2018 at 1:41 pm)SteveII Wrote: I think you are getting stuck for the moment on "possible world" semantics. The term simply means the way things could have been. We can conceive that it was possible that everything failed to exists and there was not anything at all.  There is no logical problem with that possibility.

This is precisely where we disagree.  How could it be logically possible for existence to fail at existing?  If existence fails to exist, that suggests there was some potential for existence that was never actualized.  This potential, what ever it hypothetically is or could be, would still be something.  Not nothing. 

You are overthinking this. What if there was no potential for existence? Is that conceivable? 

Quote:

Quote:Why "is there no logical alternative to existence?"

I’ll answer that question with a question, if I may.  What is the logical alternative to existence?

Nothing. Not anything. Existence did not happen. There is nothing mysterious about this concept. Just...nothing at all.

(February 8, 2018 at 7:58 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(February 8, 2018 at 5:52 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: This is precisely where we disagree.  How could it be logically possible for existence to fail at existing?  If existence fails to exist, that suggests there was some potential for existence that was never actualized.  This potential, what ever it hypothetically is or could be, would still be something.  Not nothing. 

You are overthinking this. What if there was no potential for existence? Is that conceivable? 

Quote:I’ll answer that question with a question, if I may.  What is the logical alternative to existence?

Nothing. Not anything. Existence did not happen. There is nothing mysterious about this concept. Just...nothing at all.

Steve, do you realize that just by saying, ‘nothing is’, as in: ‘nothing is an alternative to something’, or that ‘nothing could have been’, you’re already talking about nothing as though it were, in fact, something?  I think you’re the one overthinking it.  As soon as you attempt to conceptualize nothing as an alternative, you’ve already screwed the pooch, because ‘nothing’ cannot be an alternative. It can’t be anything. I would say with reasonable certainty that existence did NOT happen. That’s my entire argument: existence has always existed, because that’s what existence is, and what it does. There is no such possible thing as nothing. Not even in concept.

---

Dean Rickles says it more perfectly than I:

‘What kind of possible world could instantiate there being nothing?’

(February 8, 2018 at 1:41 pm)SteveII Wrote: Your problem continues to be that the pronoun 'nothing' means the negation of the word it is referring to!!

You had nothing for lunch. That means lunch did not happen. 

You saw nobody. Means that seeing a person did not happen.

None of the people ate to cookie. Means that eating did not happen. 

Nothing existing. Means that existing did not happen. 

So no, it does not look to be a logical contradiction--in the slightest. You MUST have tried to look this up. Didn't the fact that you couldn't find anything give you pause?

It is a logical contradiction, but I was missing some intermediate steps there to get to that conclusion.

The negation of everything in existence still requires something to exist for such a state of affairs to be possible. And in fact, the negation itself must be expressed as a possible world/state, one that has to be "concrete" in order to be possibly actual. But we can't speak of something like that as true "nothingness". And so "nothing exists" does translate to "nothing is something" and, therefore, is illogical.

(February 8, 2018 at 3:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(February 8, 2018 at 10:04 am)possibletarian Wrote: Never seen such silliness

Genesis 9:3
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

There were even instructions on what animals could and could not be eaten, of course god gave permission, well assuming that you believe the bible to be true that is.

Here is a good article from a Jewish perspective
http://www.aish.com/atr/Meat-After-the-Flood.html

I'll just point out that Little Rik is neither a Jew nor a Christian, so presenting arguments concerning the bible to him is simply evidence of a misplaced assumption.  Little Rik follows tantric yoga, specifically that taught by the Amanda Marga movement.

Amanda?
Oh, yes yes I do follow her.  

Quote:He could care less about what the bible says about eating meat.

Wrong again yog.  

I do care a lot what religious people say or how they interpret holy books because in most cases they talk rubbish and create new dogmas.  
In this way religious people give non believers a good reason not to believe in God.  

---

(February 8, 2018 at 11:28 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(February 8, 2018 at 11:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: Didn't I said that religious people give their own interpretation whether meat is good or bad?

If you are really interested in knowing whether the meat is good or bad for humans you should go in any nursing home and ask what is the percentage of meat eater and vegetarian.

I did that an guess what I found.
Out of 70 people I found only one vegetarian.
In reality was not even a real vegetarian because he was eating eggs.
The real vegetarians do not end up in a nursing home with dementia, Alzheimer, Parkinson or any other debilitating disease.
They are smarter than meat eating fools.  

No, I'm saying that if eating meat is at the centre of all diseases as you claim, then why did god give permission for people to eat meat..when before they did not ?  seems stupid.

Unless of course god does not have as much knowledge as science. or dare i say it, does not even exist.

God never gave the permission to eat meat or not to eat.
All God gave was the free will so people make their own judgements for the good or the bad.

Spiritual teachers suggest not to eat meat because the path to purity involve that which I believe is something that God agree too but God Himself doesn't go around telling people what to do nor He write holy books so you should be very careful before you say that God said this or that.  

(February 8, 2018 at 9:57 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(February 8, 2018 at 1:37 am)Godscreated Wrote: In my mind and soul/heart. I do not have to prove God to you, God hasn't ever called anyone to do so, it is God's job to show you He is real, it's up to you to desire this.

Well unfortunately (your) god is very poor at his job he does not seem to be convincing many.
As for desire, why would i 'desire' to believe especially now that i see through the religious scam ?

Really I listened and I know hundreds that have and there are about a billion others in this world that have, seems you've missed out some how.
What you see is what you want to see so you can convince yourself that God is not real and thus you do not have to seek God, you want your own morality so you dismiss God and His unchanging morality.

Quote:God of coarse. I haven't the evidence you require, God isn't going to give you physical evidence either. He will give you the evidence you need if you want it.

pt Wrote:Well fair enough, you don't have evidence if there is no physical evidence, then what kind of evidence is there that couldn't easily be attributed to some other means ?.. Almost as if, it's all in the mind.

I have the physical evidence, I didn't need it but God gave it to me because he wanted me to grow in a deeper relationship with Him. As you see the leaves moving in the trees and know the wind is blowing, I can see things happen and know God is working in my life or someone else's.

Quote:Clever with the words as atheist like to do to skirt around the subject. Let's say this, your belief is that God is not real, thus a belief system, small and unfounded but a belief ststem nevertheless.

pt Wrote:No need to be clever with words here, it's really simple, to lack belief in something cannot be a belief.

Semantics, you are playing this game and I'm not going to buy it. Explain how not believing is not related to belief.

Quote:Yes plenty, as I've said God has given me much evidence of His reality and as I said it was meant for me because I asked. Oh yes it is a claim. I do not know anyone who has seen those things or claimed they have.

pt Wrote:But can you show that evidence to anyone else, if not then of what use is it, outside your own beliefs and mind ?

What more should it be than for my relationship with God. You would just put some degrading name to what I've experienced if I were to share it with you and personally I'm tired of being told I'm things I'm not. You can kick a can all day long but that doesn't mean it will give up what it contains.

Quote:

pt Wrote:What would your default position be if someone said they had invisible, unprovable unicorns in their back garden, but that you couldn't prove they were just in his mind, and you hadn't provided a shred of evidence. ?  You can apply that kind of stupidity to anything.

Quote:

gc Wrote:I haven't said anything close to that and what you posted above is what's stupid. You and the other atheist here like to play the if game, it's a waste of time because it's not something likely to happen to anyone. I will say this though how do you know an invisible unicorn is in your back yard if you haven't seen it, invisible things are difficult for anyone to see.

pt Wrote:Yes but you are claiming a god for whom you admit there is no evidence outside of your own mind, and you own experience (which is interpreted by your own mind), so we have no reason to think it exists elsewhere. As for how would know about the invisible unicorn, of course you wouldn't that's the very point being made.

I said there is evidence outside what I know in my heart and mind/soul. You just tagged it with conformation bias and refuse to see. I asked how could the person who claims it's in their back yard see it, I wouldn't expect to.

Quote:  Yeah, like many here do, going to psychiatrist who have different answers for different people, saying what ever might fit the time and situation. You are calling on that belief system again by claiming you know there's no God, and yet you haven't provided one ounce of evidence there's not one. 

 You never believed as I do, if you had you would not deny the living God. Guess what no one duped me or even tried to get me to believe, I came to it because God called me. Oh yes I was taken to church as a child but no one ever pressured me into believing. The delusion you live with is that your belief system is right and you have no proof it's right, neither physical or spiritual.

pt Wrote:Of course I can't provide evidence there is no god, just like you cannot disprove all the other gods people claim, but we can look at the world and see things have natural causes. Your god has gone from the god who makes mountains tremble and seas roar to  the god who whimpers in peoples minds.

I'll answer the last part first, God does greater things today than shake a mountain or make a stormy sea. God through Jesus saves people every day from hell through His grace when they accept Christ as their savior. So you can't disprove God, but yet you have the gall to say He isn't real. If you can't disprove God then for you there is always the possibility that He is real, this would be only logical. I do not need to disprove any of the other so called gods, I know the true living God who says there are no other gods, by that He means none approaching who He is. They exist only in the minds of those who choose to think they are real. Then there are things like money, cars, jobs and things like that people turn into gods, all useless when it come to an eternal punishment.

pt Wrote:As a Christian I would have said (more or less) the same things as you, I was as absolute in my faith as you claim to be, and no not believing there is a god is still not a belief system, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Stop being deluded, be sober and look at reality, then you will see that the freedom you have been duped to rejoice in, simply is not freedom at all. 

 
  You could have never been as absolute in your faith as I am in mine because mine lead me to belief then knowledge of God. Faith is a word tossed around so carelessly today that it's loosing it's real meaning as far as Christianity. You have a lot of answering to do to get me to believe not believing is not a belief system, I pity you, you can't see the God you said you once believed in and now you can't see that you have substituted one belief for another, that's illogical. You claim that your faith was as strong as mine yet you left the God who can save your soul, I did not. This is proof that your faith was like the seed planted in the rocky soil, fleeting, why? No need to answer that why in a post it's meant only for you to consider. You said you would say the same things I do when you were in church, I do not believe you because you have no idea as to what I can say and do say away from this forum. As for on this forum I haven't seen you counter any Bible arguments nor do I believe you can. You wanted out and made excuses to leave and I know this because you can't disprove anything in the scriptures nor can you disprove God. Seems to me you have some serious thinking to do about life.

  The freedom I have you never enjoyed so you can't possibly know that it's not real. My freedom is in the spiritual realm of God and that realm will last forever and it is where i want to be. I'm living reality and I'm as sober minded as any sane man can be. The ones who will reject till their death, Jesus, are the deluded ones, they have talked themselves straight into an eternal punishment and it never needed to happen.

GC

(February 8, 2018 at 11:14 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(February 8, 2018 at 1:41 pm)SteveII Wrote: Your problem continues to be that the pronoun 'nothing' means the negation of the word it is referring to!!

You had nothing for lunch. That means lunch did not happen. 

You saw nobody. Means that seeing a person did not happen.

None of the people ate to cookie. Means that eating did not happen. 

Nothing existing. Means that existing did not happen. 

So no, it does not look to be a logical contradiction--in the slightest. You MUST have tried to look this up. Didn't the fact that you couldn't find anything give you pause?

It is a logical contradiction, but I was missing some intermediate steps there to get to that conclusion.

The negation of everything in existence still requires something to exist for such a state of affairs to be possible. And in fact, the negation itself must be expressed as a possible world/state, one that has to be "concrete" in order to be possibly actual. But we can't speak of something like that as true "nothingness". And so "nothing exists" does translate to "nothing is something" and, therefore, is illogical.

This nonsense that SteveII is trying to pull reminds me of a story that happened to Isaac Asimov. For some reason he decided to try to attend sociology class although he was never impressed by the soft sciences. There the sociology professor made a table on the board in which he divided people into rationalists and mystics. Under mystics he had listed mathematicians.

So Asimov asked him why did he list mathematicians as mystics and the professor told him it was because they believe in the reality of the square root of minus one. Then Asimov told him that the square root of minus one is perfectly real to which professor told him to hand him square root of minus one piece of chalk. Whereupon Asimov tried to explain him that cardinal numbers are used for counting and the so-called imaginary numbers like the square root of minus one, have other functions.

And indeed suppose you represent the real number system on a straight line with 0 (zero) in the center. The positive numbers are on one side of the zero and the negative numbers are on the other. You can then represent the imaginary system of numbers along another line, crossing the first at right angles at the zero point, with the positive imaginaries on one side of the zero and the negative imaginaries on the other. Numbers can be located anywhere in the plane by using both kinds together: (+2) + ( + 3i) or ( + 3) + (-2i). These are "complex numbers."
Mathematicians and physicists find it very useful to be able to associate all the points in a plane with a number system. They couldn't do without the so-called imaginary numbers.

Nothing is an inconceivable state . You cannot think of nothing . Nor can one negate everything that is . To say that there could ever be real nothing is nonsense .

(February 9, 2018 at 7:46 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Nothing is an inconceivable state . You cannot think of nothing . Nor can one negate everything that is . To say that there could ever be real nothing is nonsense .

I'm not sure the religious philosophy claims that there ever was true nothingness.
I think their arguments rests on there being only god.

Of course, our words betray the underlying existence of time in all this. Existence of stuff also requires the spatial framework. So, one can posit space-time as the basis for all existence.

(February 9, 2018 at 4:28 am)Godscreated Wrote: Really I listened and I know hundreds that have and there are about a billion others in this world that have, seems you've missed out some how.
What you see is what you want to see so you can convince yourself that God is not real and thus you do not have to seek God, you want your own morality so you dismiss God and His unchanging morality.

The numbers game is very silly, you do realise there are many more who do not believe in your god than believe.. and like you they have no evidence that god exists outside of their heads right ?

I don't have to convince myself of anything, theists are making a fantastic claim it really is up to you to provide the proof if you want to be take seriously.

Quote:I have the physical evidence, I didn't need it but God gave it to me because he wanted me to grow in a deeper relationship with Him. As you see the leaves moving in the trees and know the wind is blowing, I can see things happen and know God is working in my life or someone else's.

Brilliant, lets see it.. oh wait you can't.  I used to believe exactly as you do I really believed that god was moving in my life, also like you saw it in others.. Truth is though, it's a scam. I used to believe i had physical evidence too, answered prayers people seemingly healing, bottom line though I was simply convincing myself just as you are.

Quote:Semantics, you are playing this game and I'm not going to buy it. Explain how not believing is not related to belief.

Fair enough, then explain why lacking a belief is a belief system.

Quote:What more should it be than for my relationship with God. You would just put some degrading name to what I've experienced if I were to share it with you and personally I'm tired of being told I'm things I'm not. You can kick a can all day long but that doesn't mean it will give up what it contains.

I'm not interested in degrading a non existent god, nor you truth be told. It is true that i laugh at the concept now just like I laugh at the idea of Thor, Zeus ,Shiva. superman, iron man etc. but that is because of the absurdity of it all.  I'm not laughing because you believe I think that's too tragic to laugh at.
The can is a good metaphor though, you can kick it for evidence of god and simply gets lots of loud empty noise.

Quote:I said there is evidence outside what I know in my heart and mind/soul. You just tagged it with conformation bias and refuse to see. I asked how could the person who claims it's in their back yard see it, I wouldn't expect to.

Well no of course not, that's what  makes belief in invisible unprovable beings silly

Quote:I'll answer the last part first, God does greater things today than shake a mountain or make a stormy sea.

Like ?

Quote:God through Jesus saves people every day from hell through His grace when they accept Christ as their savior.

Any evidence that it is outside the mind?  i see people rejoicing over becoming Muslims, JW's, Mormons.. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Quote:So you can't disprove God, but yet you have the gall to say He isn't real.

Well real things usually have evidence attached don't they. do you have any that lives outside of you 'feelings' If not simply say 'no' what could be more simple ?

Quote:If you can't disprove God then for you there is always the possibility that He is real, this would be only logical.

Yes like I cant disprove Shiva, Thor etc. but until there is evidence i will stick to the default stance of waiting to be convinced.

Quote:I do not need to disprove any of the other so called gods, I know the true living God who says there are no other gods, by that He means none approaching who He is.

Of course you don't I agree they don't really exist, despite the followers of other gods and theologies being just as convinced and sure as you.  i just go one god further and add yours

Quote:They exist only in the minds of those who choose to think they are real.

Oh boy, really now you know how I feel about you and your god. They too know their god is real, why should your word mean more than theirs ?

Quote:Then there are things like money, cars, jobs and things like that people turn into gods, all useless when it come to an eternal punishment.

That's just daft, it's a saying that means little, people for sure want these things, even make them a priority but as for them being gods.. that's just daft to say things like that in this day and age. No one thinks their car is a god, but if they did they would at least be able to prove it exists.

Quote:You could have never been as absolute in your faith as I am in mine because mine lead me to belief then knowledge of God.

Sorry it's true i thought the same.

Quote:Faith is a word tossed around so carelessly today that it's loosing it's real meaning as far as Christianity. You have a lot of answering to do to get me to believe not believing is not a belief system

I'm not asking you believe anything, just asking you to justify how not believing in a god is a belief system

Quote:I pity you, you can't see the God you said you once believed in and now you can't see that you have substituted one belief for another, that's illogical.

No i simply saw through the one I had.

Quote:You claim that your faith was as strong as mine yet you left the God who can save your soul, I did not.

yet

Quote:This is proof that your faith was like the seed planted in the rocky soil, fleeting, why? No need to answer that why in a post it's meant only for you to consider. You said you would say the same things I do when you were in church, I do not believe you because you have no idea as to what I can say and do say away from this forum. As for on this forum I haven't seen you counter any Bible arguments nor do I believe you can. You wanted out and made excuses to leave and I know this because you can't disprove anything in the scriptures nor can you disprove God. Seems to me you have some serious thinking to do about life.

You can and do believe what you want, and i suspect to protect your delusion you have to believe that.  I don't need to disprove a book thousands of years old that has Unicorns, magical talking serpents, people who walk on water, flying chariots, big fish you can live in for three days, a sun that moves while the earth lays solid upon its foundations.. utter nonsense. Wake up see the truth.

Quote:The freedom I have you never enjoyed so you can't possibly know that it's not real.

Oh just like you, I used to think it was.

Quote:My freedom is in the spiritual realm of God and that realm will last forever and it is where i want to be. I'm living reality and I'm as sober minded as any sane man can be. The ones who will reject till their death, Jesus, are the deluded ones, they have talked themselves straight into an eternal punishment and it never needed to happen.

Again, pretty much the dribble I would have come out with, till I found freedom from delusion. I certainly rejoiced in my freedom as a Christian, but alas it all turned out to be a delusion, just like those who rejoice and believe in other religions. To listen to you i could just as easily be talking to a Buddhist  or some other religion.

But.. in the end my freedom is found in being free rejoicing in life itself and moving on in peace.