(February 28, 2018 at 1:06 pm)Divinity Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 12:56 pm)Aegon Wrote: Okay, look: I want trans athletes to compete with the sex they identify with, but as long as research shows that their bone density and strength and whathaveyou is still on average greater than a biological woman's,  then I oppose it.

Black Women have greater bone density than white women.  So obviously we should segregate them, right?

Not to the same degree it isn't

I don't think it's about fairness. To add to a point I made earlier, it's about how people want to compete, and what people want to watch.

If we wanted events to be "fair", we'd have to add a handicap to every competitor based on how good they are, and then it wouldn't matter what gender they were. No one wants to watch that, so it doesn't happen. No one wants to train hard and then be hobbled either, so it doesn't happen. (Okay it does happen occasionally, such as in golf and such.)

(February 28, 2018 at 12:47 pm)Divinity Wrote: People love pointing at Fallon Fox, and saying "She's won a lot of games!"  

Nobody has ever said any fighter has 'won a lot of games.'

(February 28, 2018 at 1:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't think it's about fairness. To add to a point I made earlier, it's about how people want to compete, and what people want to watch.

If we wanted events to be "fair", we'd have to add a handicap to every competitor based on how good they are, and then it wouldn't matter what gender they were. No one wants to watch that, so it doesn't happen. No one wants to train hard and then be hobbled either, so it doesn't happen. (Okay it does happen occasionally, such as in golf and such.)

I think there is definitely a standard of fairness expected in all sporting events. From rules against doping and cheating to separating leagues by sex. Beyond a certain point it's expected for the athlete to prove themselves, sure, but I can see why people would deem this unfair.

If we were as liberal as we are now, would sports even be separated by gender as it currently is? Tiffany needs to play in the male version where he can compete fairly. At the moment I'd assume his testosterone levels to be way higher than an average female (perhaps even higher than a female abusing testosterone injections which are not legal for competing). So logically Tiffany should be banned.

(February 28, 2018 at 1:14 pm)Aegon Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 1:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't think it's about fairness. To add to a point I made earlier, it's about how people want to compete, and what people want to watch.

If we wanted events to be "fair", we'd have to add a handicap to every competitor based on how good they are, and then it wouldn't matter what gender they were. No one wants to watch that, so it doesn't happen. No one wants to train hard and then be hobbled either, so it doesn't happen. (Okay it does happen occasionally, such as in golf and such.)

I think there is definitely a standard of fairness expected in all sporting events. From rules against doping and cheating to separating leagues by sex. Beyond a certain point it's expected for the athlete to prove themselves, sure, but I can see why people would deem this unfair.

Sure, yes

People are allowed to gain advantage over each other, but only in ways we decide are legitimate. We want people to earn it, and not take short-cuts. This is again what (other) competitors and spectators want.

(February 28, 2018 at 1:10 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't think it's about fairness. To add to a point I made earlier, it's about how people want to compete, and what people want to watch.

If we wanted events to be "fair", we'd have to add a handicap to every competitor based on how good they are, and then it wouldn't matter what gender they were. No one wants to watch that, so it doesn't happen. No one wants to train hard and then be hobbled either, so it doesn't happen. (Okay it does happen occasionally, such as in golf and such.)

If the competition is to find the best woman under 25, you don't have to handicap competitors based on how good they are.  The point of the competition is to find out how good they are.

We know Serena is the best female tennis player in the world.
We know Floyd Mayweather was the best 150ish pound boxer.
We know some old guy is the best golfer over the age of 50 (or whatever the champions league is)
We know who the best 225 lb wrestler in college is.

Etc...Age, weight, and sex are the three big groupings, and that seems reasonable.

(February 28, 2018 at 12:47 pm)Divinity Wrote: People love pointing at Fallon Fox, and saying "She's won a lot of games!"  (except they'll call her a 'he' because they refuse to accept her transition. When people do that, they show it's only about their bigotry, and not their concern for fairness)

Let's look at the people she's beaten.

-Her first fight was against Elisha Helsper, who's pro record is 0-4.  
-Her second fight was against Ericka Newsome, who's pro record is 0-2.  
-Her third fight was against Alanna Jones who's pro record is 2-8.
-Then she fought Ashlee Evans-Smith and lost.  Her pro record is 5-3.
-She did beat Heather Bassett who's pro record is 4-4.  
-And her last fight was against Tamikka Brents who's pro record is 2-3.

It's a bit less impressive once you know who's she's beaten.  (including two winless fighters, and a fighter with 2 wins and 8 losses)

The IOC -- who knows more about this than all the keyboard experts -- declared that transgender athletes do not have an unfair advantage.  (Remember when people wondered if Jackie Robinson had an unfair advantage?)  They are an extremely strict organization who banned excessive coffee drinking.  Let's not forget that.  So while it may not convince you that they are correct in their decision, it's certainly worth pointing out to all the keyboard experts out there.

Also it's not as if these people come in, change genders, and join the sport immediately.  They have to undergo years of hormone therapy before they're allowed to join.  

And people love to bring up Tennis.  So let's do just that.  Men have an advantage against women in tennis.  Right?  I mean Serena and Venus Williams can't beat the 200th ranked whatever... etc.. etc..  yadda yadda yadda.  Well let's look at Renee Richards, a transgender tennis player.  Male to Female Transition.  As a male she was ranked 4th in the region.  So it's not as if she didn't play tennis before transitioning.  After transitioning, her highest rank at the end of a year was.. 22nd.

I think there would be a discrepancy in age between when that tennis player was playing as a man and as a woman.  If they were playing in their prime as a man and in later life as a woman there would be some deterioration in performance anyway.

Plus isn't one ranking different from the other?  Being ranked as a pro is different from being ranked in your region.  The competition is supposed to be much tougher as a national pro athlete as opposed to competing in your region, I would have thought, I'm just speculating that these results might not be as simple as they first look.  22nd is a pretty 

Looking at the wiki page it said Richards was playing tennis in the navy and was ranked as high as 4th in the region, I don't think that's a pro ranking, unless I'm reading it wrong.  The 22nd ranking seems to be when Renee Richards was competing as a pro in female tennis.

(February 28, 2018 at 12:48 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 12:20 pm)A Theist Wrote: Ever hear of Roberto Duran? During his reign as the Lightweight Champion in Boxing he was known for having the hardest punch pound for pound in Boxing. He also earned a reputation for having hands of stone because he hit so hard. Let his hair grow long, put some lipstick on him and let him fight as a transgender female. Put him in with former female mma champion Ronda Rousey, both in their primes. Which of the two champions does anyone think would win. Both champions. Both in the same weight class, (Rousey currently at 135). Duran being biologically male and physically stronger would destroy Ronda Rousey with little effort.

That depends. Are we lowering his (or rather, her) testosterone levels to an acceptable level in this scenario? That makes a difference. Not saying that Rousey would win for sure, but let's keep this hypothetical in tune with what's happening in reality.

Let's keep his levels as is and say he just identifies as a woman. Even with her mma experience as a champion she wouldn't have a chance against Duran.

(February 28, 2018 at 1:19 pm)SaStrike Wrote: If we were as liberal as we are now, would sports even be separated by gender as it currently is? Tiffany needs to play in the male version where he can compete fairly. At the moment I'd assume his testosterone levels to be way higher than an average female (perhaps even higher than a female abusing testosterone injections which are not legal for competing). So logically Tiffany should be banned.

The fact that you keep referring to Tiffany as a 'he' shows it's about bigotry.  Good job.