(February 28, 2018 at 2:54 pm)Divinity Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 1:19 pm)SaStrike Wrote: If we were as liberal as we are now, would sports even be separated by gender as it currently is? Tiffany needs to play in the male version where he can compete fairly. At the moment I'd assume his testosterone levels to be way higher than an average female (perhaps even higher than a female abusing testosterone injections which are not legal for competing). So logically Tiffany should be banned.

The fact that you keep referring to Tiffany as a 'he' shows it's about bigotry.  Good job.

Ok sorry. I apologize for being a bigot. But what are your thoughts on the testosterone levels? Would it be ok for a regular female to inject huge amounts of testosterone and still compete fairly? Should Tiffany be banned because of a big (quite unfair and uncompetitive) advantage?

(February 28, 2018 at 1:19 pm)SaStrike Wrote: If we were as liberal as we are now, would sports even be separated by gender as it currently is? Tiffany needs to play in the male version where he can compete fairly. At the moment I'd assume his testosterone levels to be way higher than an average female (perhaps even higher than a female abusing testosterone injections which are not legal for competing). So logically Tiffany should be banned.

The complication, is that Tiffany competing in the male sports world isn't 'fair' either.  Trans athletes, both male and female are stuck in a limbo between the two sexes in terms of where they 'fairly' belong physiologically.

If it were more common, we'd create their own league.  But because there doesn't seem to be a big enough population yet, we're left trying to choose between a number of solutions, none of which give a result that's optimal.

(February 28, 2018 at 3:22 pm)wallym Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 1:19 pm)SaStrike Wrote: If we were as liberal as we are now, would sports even be separated by gender as it currently is? Tiffany needs to play in the male version where he can compete fairly. At the moment I'd assume his testosterone levels to be way higher than an average female (perhaps even higher than a female abusing testosterone injections which are not legal for competing). So logically Tiffany should be banned.

The complication, is that Tiffany competing in the male sports world isn't 'fair' either.  Trans athletes, both male and female are stuck in a limbo between the two sexes in terms of where they 'fairly' belong physiologically.

If it were more common, we'd create their own league.  But because there doesn't seem to be a big enough population yet, we're left trying to choose between a number of solutions, none of which give a result that's optimal.

Yes but Tiffany was a regular male before changing into a female (or attempting to with hormones and operations). I might be wrong, but that's how I understood the article and what was posted about Tiffany.

(February 28, 2018 at 3:27 pm)SaStrike Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 3:22 pm)wallym Wrote: The complication, is that Tiffany competing in the male sports world isn't 'fair' either.  Trans athletes, both male and female are stuck in a limbo between the two sexes in terms of where they 'fairly' belong physiologically.

If it were more common, we'd create their own league.  But because there doesn't seem to be a big enough population yet, we're left trying to choose between a number of solutions, none of which give a result that's optimal.

Yes but Tiffany was a regular male before changing into a female (or attempting to with hormones and operations). I might be wrong, but that's how I understood the article and what was posted about Tiffany.

Right, but if we consider the hormone treatments as necessary, they put her at a disadvantage against other males, who are keeping their testosterone levels.  The answer might just have to be that trans people have to chose between sports and their transition, and play in non-professional settings until someone can come up with a better answer.

People suggesting that sports should be split up by performance ability and not sex, obviously have no experience in sports with the opposite sex. It's an ignorant and misogynistic suggestion, because males would dominate the tiers. You would seriously need a ton of tiers and the lowest would be where most of the women were and where a woman may have a chance of winning first place at everything. And the exceptionally good women who would be in higher tiers with the men would never win and never get the recognition they deserve, when they would otherwise be recognized as first place champions and record holders among women. You're really doing women a disservice by suggesting this. Splitting up sports by sex (sex, not gender) is the only chance women (the physically weaker, slower sex) have to not be outshaddowed by our much more athletic male counterparts.

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(February 28, 2018 at 3:41 pm)wallym Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 3:27 pm)SaStrike Wrote: Yes but Tiffany was a regular male before changing into a female (or attempting to with hormones and operations). I might be wrong, but that's how I understood the article and what was posted about Tiffany.

Right, but if we consider the hormone treatments as necessary, they put her at a disadvantage against other males, who are keeping their testosterone levels.  The answer might just have to be that trans people have to chose between sports and their transition, and play in non-professional settings until someone can come up with a better answer.

Agreed. If taking hormones will make you weaker, then perhaps it's best to skip taking it if you want to be the best that you can be in your sport. Or you can go ahead and take the hormones but accept the fact that it will compromise your full potential, athletically. But demanding to be put in competition with biological women while you have a fundamental male advantage over them because you were born male is pretty fucking shitty. The male advantage is seen in every day life enough already. It shouldn't be seen in women's sports where for once women can win first place and hold world records.

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(February 28, 2018 at 11:47 am)Divinity Wrote:

(February 28, 2018 at 11:32 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Anyway, I'm sure this will all fall on deaf ears of the brick walls on this thread. Thanks Captain and FF for being the logical, sensible voices here.

Ahh yes 'logical and sensible' aka "They agree with me"

Men are physically stronger, bigger, and faster than women.

Folks who were born males are going to have a male advantage over biological women regardless of taking hormones, because the biophysical differences between the sexes are based on more than just hormone levels at a given time.

Therefore someone who was born male will have a male advantage over the biological women they are competing with, even if they are on hormones.

So yes, it in fact IS perfectly in line with logic and reason to say that this makes for an unfair competition for biological women. As is evidenced by trans folks dominating women's sports when they participate in them, taking away their first place and crushing their records.

Do I need to break it down a little more or are you still going to deny logic? Never mind. I already know the answer to that and this exchange is useless.

Lol CL you only hear about trans women dominating women's sports because the news itself want more hits and views so they sensationalize it to make it sound as if there's a threat. You don't really see all the trans women failing because it doesn't sell. Fear sells - the target audience is obvious as well but whatever. It's like you watch a people are awesome video and think oh it's so easy but it is in fact not easy at all because you missed out on the thousands and thousands of times people fail to do something and probably die as well. The mind sees what it wants to see.

But pool it's "Obvious" because CL and others say so. Your just being "illogical " for disagreeing . And just trying to be PC by not buying their non arguments. Why are you defying their concerns about "fairness".

I love how no one can actually put forth a good argument to refute my actual points.

"But they dont always win first place and crush women's records!"

"Well, it's only obvious because you say so, so there!"

"It's only 'logical' when you agree with it, ha!"

...Great arguments, guys. Keep it comin.

Can someone show that there are trans athletes at every level of women's sports, big losers to big winners?

I...I’m not sure what to say about this.