(March 16, 2018 at 1:32 pm)Mathilda Wrote: It is always matter and the flow of energy through it changing the configuration of the matter.

Matter with no energy does nothing.

Energy with no matter does not retain any persistent shape.

The cause of Leo Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina or Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony was not only the matter that made up their brain but the firing of their neurons.

But also their environment and history.

There was never a single cause. It's simplistic theistic thinking to suggest otherwise.

All efficient causes. Of course something material can be an efficient cause!! It is not a material cause because it is made of material!!!!!!!!!

AND then there is the fact that the novel and the symphony are not material in any way. So, we have efficient causes having an effect that is not immaterial (not consisting of matter OR energy). Kind of blows up the whole "it's always matter and the flow of energy" argument.

(March 16, 2018 at 1:49 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(March 16, 2018 at 1:32 pm)Mathilda Wrote: It is always matter and the flow of energy through it changing the configuration of the matter.

Matter with no energy does nothing.

Energy with no matter does not retain any persistent shape.

The cause of Leo Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina or Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony was not only the matter that made up their brain but the firing of their neurons.

But also their environment and history.

There was never a single cause. It's simplistic theistic thinking to suggest otherwise.

All efficient causes. Of course something material can be an efficient cause!! It is not a material cause because it is made of material!!!!!!!!!

AND then there is the fact that the novel and the symphony are not material in any way. So, we have efficient causes having an effect that is not immaterial (not consisting of matter OR energy). Kind of blows up the whole "it's always matter and the flow of energy" argument.

Here Here. I remember the last immaterial novel I read, Wrinkle in time.  Granted it was hard what with having no pages are binding but I got through it and stand here as testament.

Fun Fact: Energy is solid, Like butter but fizzier.

I just was Science would break free from its cruel sin-loving masters and start publishing fact.

(March 16, 2018 at 1:49 pm)SteveII Wrote: All efficient causes. Of course something material can be an efficient cause!! It is not a material cause because it is made of material!!!!!!!!!

You aren't stoned are you?

(March 16, 2018 at 1:49 pm)SteveII Wrote: AND then there is the fact that the novel and the symphony are not material in any way. So, we have efficient causes having an effect that is not immaterial (not consisting of matter OR energy). Kind of blows up the whole "it's always matter and the flow of energy" argument.

Yay! Welcome to the subject of 'time' and when you have mastered that, you will be ready for 'persistent pattern'.

(March 16, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Mathilda Wrote:

(March 16, 2018 at 1:49 pm)SteveII Wrote: All efficient causes. Of course something material can be an efficient cause!! It is not a material cause because it is made of material!!!!!!!!!

You aren't  stoned are you?

(March 16, 2018 at 1:49 pm)SteveII Wrote: AND then there is the fact that the novel and the symphony are not material in any way. So, we have efficient causes having an effect that is not immaterial (not consisting of matter OR energy). Kind of blows up the whole "it's always matter and the flow of energy" argument.

Yay! Welcome to the subject of 'time' and when you have mastered that, you will be ready for 'persistent pattern'.

I know words are hard, but you really have to try...

Which of the above concepts are hard for you to understand?

---

(March 16, 2018 at 2:09 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote:

(March 16, 2018 at 1:49 pm)SteveII Wrote: All efficient causes. Of course something material can be an efficient cause!! It is not a material cause because it is made of material!!!!!!!!!

AND then there is the fact that the novel and the symphony are not material in any way. So, we have efficient causes having an effect that is not immaterial (not consisting of matter OR energy). Kind of blows up the whole "it's always matter and the flow of energy" argument.

Here Here. I remember the last immaterial novel I read, Wrinkle in time.  Granted it was hard what with having no pages are binding but I got through it and stand here as testament.

Fun Fact: Energy is solid, Like butter but fizzier.

I just was Science would break free from its cruel sin-loving masters and start publishing fact.

Fun Fact: A novel and symphony are abstract objects. They are not equivalent to the paper they are written on. If you destroy a book, you do not destroy the story. If you destroy a sheet of music, you do not destroy the symphony. It is not the paper that is compelling, it is not the sheet with notes written upon it that is moving. 

This is basic philosophy.

(March 16, 2018 at 2:50 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(March 16, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Mathilda Wrote: You aren't  stoned are you?


Yay! Welcome to the subject of 'time' and when you have mastered that, you will be ready for 'persistent pattern'.

I know words are hard, but you really have to try...

Which of the above concepts are hard for you to understand?

---

(March 16, 2018 at 2:09 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Here Here. I remember the last immaterial novel I read, Wrinkle in time.  Granted it was hard what with having no pages are binding but I got through it and stand here as testament.

Fun Fact: Energy is solid, Like butter but fizzier.

I just was Science would break free from its cruel sin-loving masters and start publishing fact.

Fun Fact: A novel and symphony are abstract objects. They are not equivalent to the paper they are written on. If you destroy a book, you do not destroy the story. If you destroy a sheet of music, you do not destroy the symphony. It is not the paper that is compelling, it is not the sheet with notes written upon it that is moving. 

This is basic philosophy.

I myself find paper very compelling. Philosophy only clouds the mind, We can't let out faith get swayed by wishy-washy what ifs.

Anyway I was agreeing with you, Energy does not flow, It's solid, like the aforementioned land o lakes

Steve-o sure has invested a lot of arm waving and flailing about into logic-ing his gawd into existence, hasn't he.

Give it up, Stevie. No one here is going to buy your brand of bullshit absent any real evidence

So this is even more interesting. There is no material cause to a novel or symphony (only an efficient cause). Both are abstract objects. Yet they can be a cause of their own once read or heard. You can be compelled to act by a novel or emotionally moved by a symphony. In the same way, ideas (conveyed through language) are not material and yet can have so much causal power. So not only is it possible that the immaterial is the efficient cause on the material (us), but it happens constantly.

(March 16, 2018 at 3:04 pm)SteveII Wrote: So this is even more interesting. There is no material cause to a novel or symphony (only an efficient cause). Both are abstract objects. Yet they can be a cause of their own once read or heard. You can be compelled to act by a novel or emotionally moved by a symphony. In the same way, ideas (conveyed through language) are not material and yet can have so much causal power. So not only is it possible that the immaterial is the efficient cause on the material (us), but it happens constantly.

Trust me, you can't be holding me to a lower standard than I hold you. You're a one trick pony and your one trick is catastrophicly flawed.

(March 16, 2018 at 3:04 pm)SteveII Wrote: So this is even more interesting. There is no material cause to a novel or symphony (only an efficient cause). Both are abstract objects. Yet they can be a cause of their own once read or heard. You can be compelled to act by a novel or emotionally moved by a symphony. In the same way, ideas (conveyed through language) are not material and yet can have so much causal power. So not only is it possible that the immaterial is the efficient cause on the material (us), but it happens constantly.

Seems solid to me.

Though I should mention FSM is both Immaterial and Material, I'm wondering when you get to him as the source, because it is you know.

(March 16, 2018 at 3:09 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(March 16, 2018 at 3:04 pm)SteveII Wrote: So this is even more interesting. There is no material cause to a novel or symphony (only an efficient cause). Both are abstract objects. Yet they can be a cause of their own once read or heard. You can be compelled to act by a novel or emotionally moved by a symphony. In the same way, ideas (conveyed through language) are not material and yet can have so much causal power. So not only is it possible that the immaterial is the efficient cause on the material (us), but it happens constantly.

Trust me, you can't be holding me to a lower standard than I hold you. You're a one trick pony and your one trick is catastrophicly flawed.

Why do you insert yourself into these conversations? You are obviously not equipped for them. Does it make you feel better about your simplistic worldview? I suppose that's something. Glad I could help.