You’re not getting it Hammy. It doesn’t matter that it’s the same vagina. What matters is that someone’s feelings have changed about it due to new information that they didn’t have before. It doesn’t make them transphobic. It makes them not attracted to trans women. There’s nothing wrong with that.

(March 23, 2018 at 6:11 pm)Shell B Wrote: Dude, it means I changed my mind about how I feel about beef stew. It doesn't mean I still like beef stew, but I don't know it. It's not possible to be bigoted against an apple, either, dude, but you're allowed to use that analogy.

My analogy about the apple was not about bigotry. I already said that the only reason I made my apple analogy was to point out why letting the images of dogshit spoil the enjoyment of eating apple doesn't mean you don't enjoy eating apples. I said that at best you're making a false analogy because it has nothing to do with bigotry (as my argument, indeed didn't, and wasn't trying to, which is why your analogy would be false because it didn't address mine which isn't about that).... and at worst you're just literally repeating my point. Dogshit spoiling my enjoyment of apples doesn't mean I don't enjoy apples. Puke spoiling your enjoyment of beef stew doesn't mean you don't like beef stew. Believing it does mean that is just making a non-sequtiur about what it actually means. Unless if you no longer had those images of puke spoiling beef stew for you you really didn't like beef stew anymore just because you didn't like it anymore. But you've already said that without that experience you'd still like beef stew. Which means it has absolutely nothing to do with your dislike of beef stew, it has to do with your experience that has absolutely nothing to do with the enjoyment or non-enjoyment of beef stew or not. If X gets in the way of enjoying Y it doesn't mean you don't enjoy Y and believing it does mean that just means you're wrong about that.

(March 23, 2018 at 6:09 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 6:02 pm)Shell B Wrote: So, you're arguing something no one ever said?

I'm arguing for a position regarding what would and wouldn't be transphobic and why and people are responding to it and misunderstanding it.

What are we misunderstanding?

We are talking about originally being attracted to someone and then losing that attraction once you are told that peraon is trans.

Hammy, shit spoiling the enjoyment of eating apples does mean you no longer like apples, if you no longer like apples, and it doesn’t mean that, if you still do.

So, people are wrong about how they feel. They're not genuinely turned off?

(March 23, 2018 at 6:12 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 6:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You can lose attraction for a vagina you originally thought looked good after finding out it's a fake vag made out of penis tissue.

How? It's the exact same fake vagina you're already attracted to.

Quote: Not because of how it looks, but because of the idea of it.

The idea of it is identical to it if the idea you have in your ahead actually addresses it. The idea of what it used to be like is not the idea of it.

Quote: Sexual attraction is a complex thing, and is completely involuntary.

Yes it's completely involuntary and for the Nth time if someone genuinely becomes turned off after discovering someone is trans I'm not saying that's transphobic. I'm making an argument against the very idea that they are as genuinely turned off as they think they are, because they're not actually addressing the transwoman they claim to not be attracted to, they're addressing who the transwoman previously was, a person they've never even met. They're wrestling with their own imagination and their own images in their head about the past and feeling icky rather than their perception of someone they're attracted to.

When one is attracted to something, usually it is not just to the visual, tactile aspects of it. It is also to presumed properties that are not readily directly observed. For example when you fall in love with a woman you assume she is not an axe murderer disguising her past.

It seems pretty reasonable for some people to ascribe functionality to an attractive vagina that could not be readily observed, and which are overwhelmingly likely to be present in a normal healthy woman, but would be absent in a transgender woman.

If the sexual attraction depends on these presumed traits, then they would be weakened or destroyed if these traits were revealed to be absent.

(March 23, 2018 at 6:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 6:09 pm)Hammy Wrote: I'm arguing for a position regarding what would and wouldn't be transphobic and why and people are responding to it and misunderstanding it.

What are we misunderstanding?

We are talking about originally being attracted to someone and then losing that attraction once you are told that peraon is trans.

If you don't agree with him, you clearly don't understand him.

(March 23, 2018 at 6:14 pm)Losty Wrote: You’re not getting it Hammy. It doesn’t matter that it’s the same vagina. What matters is that someone’s feelings have changed about it due to new information that they didn’t have before. It doesn’t make them transphobic. It makes them not attracted to trans women. There’s nothing wrong with that.

They -are- attracted to a transwoman..in the OP.

@Shell, I;m sure that everyone who'se turned off by the revelation is genuinely turned off (and on another posters point I bet that every reason is entirely involuntary), but isn't the question trying to get at why, and whether or not it's about their being trans alone?

(March 23, 2018 at 6:12 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 23, 2018 at 6:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You can lose attraction for a vagina you originally thought looked good after finding out it's a fake vag made out of penis tissue.

How? It's the exact same fake vagina you're already attracted to.

Quote: Not because of how it looks, but because of the idea of it.

The idea of it is identical to it if the idea you have in your ahead actually addresses it. The idea of what it used to be like is not the idea of it.

Quote: Sexual attraction is a complex thing, and is completely involuntary.

Yes it's completely involuntary and for the Nth time if someone genuinely becomes turned off after discovering someone is trans I'm not saying that's transphobic. I'm making an argument against the very idea that they are as genuinely turned off as they think they are, because they're not actually addressing the transwoman they claim to not be attracted to, they're addressing who the transwoman previously was, a person they've never even met. They're wrestling with their own imagination and their own images in their head about the past and feeling icky rather than their perception of someone they're attracted to.

Because the mind is complex like that. The idea of something can turn you off despite anything else.

For example, if I had a casserole that I thought tasted delicious and later found out the meat in it is monkey brains. I can then feel completely repulsed by it and want to puke, when initially I thought it tasted good. And if someone offered it to me again I would refuse, and the smell of it would make me want to puke, even though I initially I thought it smelled good.

Likewise, a person can feel attracted to a vagina, but upon being told that it's actually cut up penis tissue, feel involuntarily unattracted to it.

(March 21, 2018 at 10:21 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 21, 2018 at 10:19 pm)chimp3 Wrote: The anatomical features would not bother me. If the person has an unhealthy preoccupation with the drama of the sex change it would bother me. I am not comfortable with pretense.

Could you give an example of such a drama? I'm not sure what you mean.

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I know people that are obsessed with talking about their conditions. Nothing ever gets resolved. If this hypothetical transgender person was now comfortable in their own body it would be a plus.