(March 26, 2018 at 1:03 pm)Khemikal Wrote: When I say less than lethal I'm referring to a type of round.  Personally, I wouldn't waste legislative capital on a restriction than can be defeated by masking tape, like magazine sizes.  The only way to really limit the amount of rounds somebody can spit out from..say, a semi auto or fast bolt..is with floor plate models that have obstructive hinges that keep the bolt from function if the mag exceeds the depth of the seat.

Any bottom loading mag fed (or open bolt top fed - or side fed..for all you eastern bloc fuckers) firearm is going to waltz right around a mag restriction. Which is to say, simply, that every gun one might seek to regulate with that sort of language is inherently capable of defeating it.

---

-a demonstration



Now, these are high cap bananas, but you can do it with 5 round straight mags just the same.  Adds what, a few seconds extra time to a shooting spree?  This is why a mag restriction would mean that people would just legally purchase legal mags, and legally purchase legal tape..and legally tape their legal mags together..then illegally execute schoolchridren with them.  Bonus for the manufacturers..they get to sell 6 five round units instead of one 30 round unit.

Sound familiar?

No matter the product, even with financial institutions, there are ALWAYS assholes who will look for loopholes or ways to cheat. That is no excuse to do nothing.

Of course you can tape clips together. I've also heard far right nuts talk about moving to 3-D scanners to usurp the system.

It still remains you have an ease of access issue. And that access issue is maintained by the industry through their fear marketing. Just like the auto industry resisted any change to their products with Nadar's objections.

Technology changes but that is not an excuse to do nothing. 

I agree with less lethal rounds, I also agree with limits on the amount you can buy. But you still do not need big clips, for either handguns or long guns.

America has to face our epidemic and work to reducing firearm violence. The biggest hurdle right now is the marketing of the industry and it's lobby.

(March 26, 2018 at 11:53 am)Cathooloo Wrote:

(March 26, 2018 at 7:49 am)Lok1 Wrote: Claiming that anyone believes "nothing should be done about school shootings" is every bit as dishonest.

Bullshit.

Just yesterday I encountered a mouth breather who asserted that dead kids were simply the price of freedom. 

It's funny how when it's a right that isn't important to an individual, people who value that right are selfish assholes who have children's blood on their hands.  But when it's a right that IS important to them, everybody turns into Thomas Paine.
That's what it boils down to.  "The risks associated with the rights that I personally value are acceptable/the cost of freedom.  The risks associated with the rights I personally don't value aren't."

(March 26, 2018 at 1:42 pm)wallym Wrote:

(March 26, 2018 at 11:53 am)Cathooloo Wrote: Bullshit.

Just yesterday I encountered a mouth breather who asserted that dead kids were simply the price of freedom. 

It's funny how when it's a right that isn't important to an individual, people who value that right are selfish assholes who have children's blood on their hands.  But when it's a right that IS important to them, everybody turns into Thomas Paine.
That's what it boils down to.  "The risks associated with the rights that I personally value are acceptable/the cost of freedom.  The risks associated with the rights I personally don't value aren't."

Thomas Paine didn't have access to AR-15s. Is this more orignalist crap? Ok, you can have a musket.

There is NO POINT at all in having our system of checks and balances if all we ever do is what one side says. The founders fought a King who wanted the colonies to only do what he said. 

Not getting 100% of what you want all the time is not persecution.

(March 26, 2018 at 1:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No matter the product, even with financial institutions, there are ALWAYS assholes who will look for loopholes or ways to cheat. That is no excuse to do nothing.

.................?

Quote:Of course you can tape clips together. I've also heard far right nuts talk about moving to 3-D scanners to usurp the system.

Scanners?  You mean printers, I assume, to print their own mags?  Why would they, when they can just buy 5 rounds and tape..that's not "cheating" it's following the law.  If the law is so ineptly constructed that taping magazines together constitutes cheating that would obviate it, perhaps we shouldn't waste momentum on that - as it's the same as "doing nothing"..and also..rather than doing nothing..actually or effectively...do something that is a little more difficult to legally circumvent?  

Quote:It still remains you have an ease of access issue. And that access issue is maintained by the industry through their fear marketing. Just like the auto industry resisted any change to their products with Nadar's objections.

Technology changes but that is not an excuse to do nothing. 

I agree with less lethal rounds, I also agree with limits on the amount you can buy. But you still do not need big clips, for either handguns or long guns.

America has to face our epidemic and work to reducing firearm violence. The biggest hurdle right now is the marketing of the industry and it's lobby.

Meh, whatevs, it aint the size of the clip that kills but if you want to barter with the nuts..and you'll have to, over the size of their magazine... be prepared to lose much and gain nothing. Just like last time.

Correct, Wally.  You're a selfish asshole.

The question which remains is, are you as stupid as this fucking moron?

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/03/hitlers...un-owners/

Quote:‘Hitler’s regime took guns’: Televangelists say Parkland students are like ‘demonic’ Nazis who ‘rape’ gun owners

Quote:“People have got to address the fact that kids today are being put in school where there’s no morals,” the television evangelist announced. “Because we’ve taken God out of the school. And there’s no resistance then to anything that Satan throws these kids’ way.”

Only you can answer that.


BTW, Hitler did not disarm anyone, in fact, he significantly loosed the prior restrictions put in place by the Weimar Republic.  But what do gun nut shitheads care about facts?

http://standardnews.com/adolf-hitler-gun-control-myth/

Quote:“The 1938 law signed by Hitler that LaPierre mentions in his book basically does the opposite of what he says it did. ‘The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition,’ [law professor Bernard E.] Harcourt wrote. Meanwhile, many more categories of people, including Nazi party members, were exempted from gun ownership regulations altogether, while the legal age of purchase was lowered from 20 to 18, and permit lengths were extended from one year to three years.”

Stop listening to a fuckhead like Wayne LaPierre.

(March 26, 2018 at 2:09 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(March 26, 2018 at 1:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No matter the product, even with financial institutions, there are ALWAYS assholes who will look for loopholes or ways to cheat. That is no excuse to do nothing.

.................?

Quote:Of course you can tape clips together. I've also heard far right nuts talk about moving to 3-D scanners to usurp the system.

Scanners?  You mean printers, I assume, to print their own mags?  Why would they, when they can just buy 5 rounds and tape..that's not "cheating" it's following the law.  If the law is so ineptly constructed that taping magazines together constitutes cheating that would obviate it, perhaps we shouldn't waste momentum on that - as it's the same as "doing nothing"..and also..rather than doing nothing..actually or effectively...do something that is a little more difficult to legally circumvent?  

Quote:It still remains you have an ease of access issue. And that access issue is maintained by the industry through their fear marketing. Just like the auto industry resisted any change to their products with Nadar's objections.

Technology changes but that is not an excuse to do nothing. 

I agree with less lethal rounds, I also agree with limits on the amount you can buy. But you still do not need big clips, for either handguns or long guns.

America has to face our epidemic and work to reducing firearm violence. The biggest hurdle right now is the marketing of the industry and it's lobby.

Meh, whatevs, it aint the size of the clip that kills but if you want to barter with the nuts..and you'll have to, over the size of their magazine... be prepared to lose much and gain nothing.  Just like last time.

You are sill not getting it.

"It isn't the size of the clip that kills"

Is the same bullshit argument used by the far right "Guns don't kill people"

I don't care.

"Clips don't kill people"

Is the same as 

"Guns don't kill people"

Bullets cant shoot themselves anymore than a clip can plug itself into a gun, anymore than a trigger can pull itself. ALL OF THEM ARE OBJECTS. 

I don't care if we are talking about guns, clips OR bullets. ALL OF THEM combined are designed to hit targets and cause damage. 

Objects do not have rights. 

The REAL problem has always been one industry and one lobby protecting our flooded market and ease of access.

You don't need spray weapons, you don't need big clips, and you brought up the issue of changing bullets. I AGREE, but ALL OF THAT needs better regulation, not just bullets.

America ultimately has to change it's attitude about how we view firearms. <----- I am not talking about a ban on all, but how we view them. No law we can put forth will work nationally until we face the fact that firearms are OBJECTS, clips and bullets are OBJECTS. Humans are living and should matter more than an object.

(March 26, 2018 at 1:42 pm)wallym Wrote:

(March 26, 2018 at 11:53 am)Cathooloo Wrote: Bullshit.

Just yesterday I encountered a mouth breather who asserted that dead kids were simply the price of freedom. 

It's funny how when it's a right that isn't important to an individual, people who value that right are selfish assholes who have children's blood on their hands.  But when it's a right that IS important to them, everybody turns into Thomas Paine.
That's what it boils down to.  "The risks associated with the rights that I personally value are acceptable/the cost of freedom.  The risks associated with the rights I personally don't value aren't."

Rights are not absolute, including the 2nd.

The costs of exercising that particular right are external, in no small part borne by innocents.

When that is the case, society is definitely within their rights to curtail it.

Doing nothing accomplishes nothing but more dead people.

In my lifetime, more civilians have been killed by civilians using civilian-owned guns than in every US armed conflict during that same period. That includes the majority of the casualties in Vietnam.

I find it very sad - and very telling - that you apparently consider those million+ dead to be an acceptable cost to your right to own weapons of war.

And before you accuse me of not valuing this right or that - I am a veteran, former NRA life, former staunch RKBA advocate, former hunter, former competitive shooter, former concealed handgun licensee, and combat trained. The current NRA agenda is extremist. NRA rhetoric ("Tree of Liberty", "Come and get it", "Cold dead hands") are extremist positions, not to mention implicit threats of violence against the rule of law.

You don't get to tell me what I do and do not value. The second amendment is not a suicide pact.

Defend that. Defend over a million dead since 1967.

I dare you.

We are not going to allow a small minority of extremists who are happy with the status quo, or worse, want to roll back existing to law to stand in the way any longer.

Let me ask you directly - are dead innocents a legitimate cost of your unfettered 2nd amendment rights?

If so, fuck off, you are part of the problem, and we will solve it without you.

Like I said, you do you.  I'm going to continue to suggest that we prioritize things that might actually work in the list of what we want to barter with the nuts for.  

I just don't think that a series of pyrrhic victories will ever amount to credible gun legislation. If I were a cynical negotiator (which I am) working for the nut lobby (which I'm not) I'd give you your mag ban knowing it wouldn't do shit but bump my profits, and extract a heavy toll from you for it. When the next school shooting inevitably occurred..it would be with legally purchased small mags and legally purchased tape.

(the value of the nras extremist position is that it sets up a deep roster of sacrificial issues)

(March 26, 2018 at 2:29 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Like I said, you do you.  I'm going to continue to suggest that we prioritize things that might actually work in the list of what we want to barter with the nuts for.  

I just don't think that a series of pyrrhic victories will ever amount to credible gun legislation.  If I were a cynical negotiator (which I am) working for the nut lobby  (which I'm not) I'd give you your mag ban knowing it wouldn't do shit but bump my profits, and extract a heavy toll from you for it.  When the next school shooting inevitably occurred..it would be with legally purchased small mags and legally purchased tape.

(the value of the nras extremist position is that it sets up a deep roster of sacrificial issues)

OUR TOP priority should be breaking the back of the vile fear narrative of the industry and the leadership of the NRA.

Big oil would still have lead in gas, if nobody said it was dangerous. Tobacco wouldn't have stopped using Joe Camel if the the sane didn't stop them. Cars wouldn't have added seat belts and air bags if it were not for Nadar. But even with cars, even today, they are getting away with dangerous screen technology which might as well be a fucking TV on your dash. But that is a different topic.

The individual product is a problem, with all of those things. It is the ATTITUDE about all those things that prevents us from regulating them to do what you say, cause less death. Same can be said with fuel. Saying we need to get off of burning fossil fuel isn't a call to end all energy.

Everyone knows that guns are dangerous, nutters buy them because they're dangerous, to do dangerous things to the dangerous people they think are lurking behind every taco truck and fried chicken hut. The more you play up the danger of guns or the danger of guns in our society the more that subset feels they need one.

Just roll with it, man, find some solution that plays to their irrationality rather than one which sets up an adversarial relationship. That;s how you turn the weapon of your enemy against it's own handlers.

Yes, there's a home intruder hiding behind all of your curtains. Better buy beanbag rounds so you can defend yourself without being tried for murder by the deep state and held as a political prisoner for exercising your god given rights!