(March 27, 2018 at 2:32 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Eh, it's not the first time I've seen someone try to use that as some sort of "gotcha!" against prolifers.

It wasn't supposed to be a gotcha, it was supposed to be a joke. I guess it wasn't funny

I've lost the plot now lol. What profilers, where? And what do they have to do with chickens? Did I miss a meeting?

We're not onto the topic of immigration again are we? Hehe.

(March 27, 2018 at 3:08 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 3:03 pm)robvalue Wrote: Me neither, I have no idea how someone can think otherwise.

By thinking about it

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(March 27, 2018 at 3:06 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Hammy, here's some more evidence that chickens are sentient:

When I was a kid I had a friend who lived kind of out in the country and they had a chicken coup. We'd think it was funny back then to get into the coup and chase them around. They'd freak out and squeal and run all over the place trying to get away from us. (cruel, I know. I'm not proud of it, trust me.)

Anyway, my friend's mom used to get pissed at us because doing that would stress out the chickens and they wouldn't lay as many eggs.

So, there you have it. Chickens get stressed out and it effects them enough to have a biological effect.

An insentient robot could do that.

I don't think any of that is evidence of sentience.

But their brains may be developed enough for sentience, which is why I think cruelty to birds is wrong: I could be wrong.

I certainly think that cruelty to mammals is worse though. Even if birds are sentient it's not going to be on the same level as mammals and mammals aren't going to be on the same level as primates.

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To quote an even shorter part of Galen Strawson's article here:-- http://www.academia.edu/411597/The_self_..._Explained

--to anyone here that is still missing my point:

Quote:Experience of pain seems obviously useful because it motivates one to avoid sources of damage. But the tendency to avoid sources of damage could evolve without involving pain. Damage-recognition mechanisms could trigger damage-source-avoidance behaviour without there having to be any actual feeling of pain, or any other sort of experience. Perhaps some actual organisms on earth are like this.

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(March 27, 2018 at 11:15 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: I think they are. It's pretty evident. Why do you disagree, Hammy? What qualifies as sentience in your book?

By the way, I'd just like to re-quote this to thank you for posing the same sort of question to me that Crossless did, but in a much more civil and respectable manner than "Why on EARTH do you think that?" as if my position is absurd by default, when perhaps he actually needs to think things through a little more than he has.

So, thanks again

Lol, experiencing emotional distress is literally the definition of NOT being a robot.

(March 27, 2018 at 2:00 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 1:08 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Why do you think pain is a quality of being sentient? You and I are on different pages.

Well pain itself isn't but any experience requires sentience so the experience of actually feeling pain and it actually being painful, and not to just be a bodily reaction that looks like pain from the outside, requires sentience. Any pain that is actually painful to an organism requires sentience.

I've read some of your other posts. Fish, reptiles, amphibians and birds all learn to avoid pain (physical), therefore they perceive pain. There are several other indicators for the perception of pain. I'd consider that "painful" sentience. Maybe they don't "feel" (experience) it the same as humans but they do feel it. 

Google Pain in "........" wiki. Then read.

(March 27, 2018 at 4:50 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 2:00 pm)Hammy Wrote: Well pain itself isn't but any experience requires sentience so the experience of actually feeling pain and it actually being painful, and not to just be a bodily reaction that looks like pain from the outside, requires sentience. Any pain that is actually painful to an organism requires sentience.

I've read some of your other posts. Fish, reptiles, amphibians and birds all learn to avoid pain (physical), therefore they perceive pain. There are several other indicators for the perception of pain. I'd consider that "painful" sentience. Maybe they don't "feel" (experience) it the same as humans but they do feel it. 

Google Pain in "........" wiki. Then read.

And after that, ask yourself why veterinarians administer analgesics to a wide variety of animals, including birds.

Indeed, expecting them to do things in the same way as humans is silly, when they're not humans. But there's really not as much difference between us and other animals as we'd sometimes like to think.

JBH: I think some people prefer to think of animals as being less/non sentient to ease their conscience. Of course, one can define sentience in a way that excludes everything we "don't want" to be sentient, but I think that is ridiculously artificial.

I do think animals have a lesser sense of self awareness and sentience as humans, but they definitely still do have it. As I said, sentience is on a sliding scale.

(March 27, 2018 at 10:50 am)Hammy Wrote: I wouldn't even call fish alive. They're just like little biological robots that taste nice.

"It's okay to eat fish, cuz' they don't have any feelings..."

(March 27, 2018 at 4:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Lol, experiencing emotional distress is literally the definition of NOT being a robot.

That begs the very question I'm raising though. It's as though you're saying that they must experience emotional stress because obviously they experience emotional stress. My point is that you don't need to experience anything let alone pain, to behave like a chicken. That's why I broke up robots, that's an example of something that could be programmed to behave like a chicken, but without experiencing anything. And I'm saying: What makes you think chickens aren't like that? What makes you think they're developed on a neurological level to the extent that mammals are that allows them to experience anything?

Of course, I'm not particularly addressing you because I'm sure your own answer involves something like a soul that I of course don't believe in.

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(March 27, 2018 at 4:55 pm)Crossless2.0 Wrote: And after that, ask yourself why veterinarians administer analgesics to a wide variety of animals, including birds.

That really begs the question lol.

"Soceity has decided that it's the right thing to do! Therefore it must be correct!"

Ever heard of this thing called religion? Lol. Gay marriage wasn't even legal in America until a few years ago. It's not really an argument to say "Makes you wonder why people do X then!" people get things wrong lol.

Try making an argument that isn't a non-sequitur next lol.

Just for the record I've gutted hundreds of fish, gigged dozens of frogs and pulled/cut the heads off birds. I've also killed plenty of mammals. As a omnivore (and family euthanasiast) it's causes me little cognitive dissonance but I do try to cause the least amount of pain for the animal.