(March 31, 2018 at 6:00 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: I'd like to think most apologists know when to hold them, know when to fold them, when to walk away and when to run.

Not too many would try to 'splain something like this:

Acts 26  (KJV)
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

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what about LAZARUS ???????

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Lazarus did not rise (under his own power) from the dead Christ called Him out from the dead. What is being said here is Christ was the first to rise to defeat death and come back on his own.

They're apologists. They make a living by lying.

Mark 15 (KJV)

21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.


John 19 (KJV)

16 Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified. So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. 17 Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). 18 There they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.

I doesn't surprise me that some believers actually lie about what they truly believe. At the same time I don't think believers have a monopoly on lying. The degree to which the likes of Dennett and Dawkins straw-man suggests to me that they know their objections do not adequately challenge arguments such as the Argument from Reason, the Thomistic demonstrations, mathematical efficacy, and fine-tuning. I'm not saying that these arguments are unassailable, just that the skeptics intentionally ignore their merits and mis-characterize them in order to indulge in ridicule.

That's not what the Dominionists who are trying to take over the USA and control what is taught in our classrooms are selling. It's not a strawman to focus on the arguments of the people who are the biggest threat to education and government neutrality towards religion. Dawkins got into the biz over frustration with all the creationists who kept turning up in his biology classes. Most of the people claiming dinosaurs and people lived together never heard of mathematical efficacy.

(March 31, 2018 at 3:47 pm)Bahana Wrote: I was listening to an interview with Tracie Harris recently and she stated that she investigated some of the claims of Josh McDowell and seemed convinced that he knew he was leaving information out in his books and was dishonest. Are there any apologists that you suspect may not be sincere and know they are deceiving people?

I cannot believe that believers and their clergy believe the lies that plague all received religions. 

I do not want to think that there are that many people in the world who can go into intellectual and moral dissonance and believe in the supernatural.

The left wing religions are not nearly as dishonest as the right wingers though.

Regards
DL

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(March 31, 2018 at 4:27 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Self convinced snake oil salesman are amateurs.  They're no good at what they do because they're the consumer of their own product.  The really succesful salesmen know that what they're selling is shit.....it's that knowledge that helps them to succeed in the first place.  They know that their product costs pennies and can be sold for dollars.

We have fraud laws that are not being enforced against the fraudsters.

That may be why we also tolerate liars like Trump.

Any suggestions as to how to get the fraud squads to do their jobs and protect the most vulnerable and gullible of us?

Regards
DL

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(March 31, 2018 at 6:00 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: I'd like to think most apologists know when to hold them, know when to fold them, when to walk away and when to run.

Not too many would try to 'splain something like this:

Acts 26  (KJV)
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

---

what about LAZARUS ???????

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From a literalist POV, I agree that that is rather senseless and an apologist would run away.

As an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian, I would just throw these out and point out that there are good reasons why the church never quote them and apologists run from them. Way too close to Eastern religious thinking for the Western.

 Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
 
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
 
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Note that these empower individual and that is the last think a church wants.

Sheeple are to remain as sheeple and not turn into goats, that way the money keps on flowing from the victim to the fraudster clergy.

Regards
DL

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(March 31, 2018 at 9:30 pm)Chad32 Wrote: There are people who drink the koolaid, and honestly believe the stuff they're telling people. However it is inevitable that they will find out their information is dubious at best, and either abandon it, or become dishonest. Anyone who has done it for long enough is either willfully ignorant, or dishonest.

I agree and would love to charge one of those fraudsters with fraud.

I imagine I would have a hard time finding a cop to lay the charge since they seem to like to have the Noble Lie that religions are somehow good for us must be maintained.

Regards
DL

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(March 31, 2018 at 10:10 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: It's not that apologists "may" be lying.  They "are" lying.

So are their clergy for the cash it brings in.

That is fraud to me but the law does not seem to agree.

Regards
DL

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(April 1, 2018 at 12:06 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 10:49 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: What's with your focus on Mormonism? They are a tiny minority outside of Utah. Most Christians eschew them. Bad personal experience?

Mormonism is an easy target for mockery in that its invention was documented every step of the way. And yet worldwide there are nearly sixteen million of the dumb bastards. What's not to laugh at?

Given that the vast majority in the world claim to be religious, do you see them as dumb or just letting their tribal/hivish nature accept the B.S. of their religions for the fellowship?

I think, since many were holding their noses to vote for Trump, that our tribal nature was what made many vote against their own conscience and moral sense. That shows how powerful our tribal instincts are.

They are conservative for a reason just as most here are more liberal for the reason of a reasonable tribal nature that may not have overridden atheist and non-believer common sense.

Regards
DL

When something is ingrained in the culture enough, it's not an easy fix to get rid of it.

(April 7, 2018 at 2:58 pm)Chad32 Wrote: When something is ingrained in the culture enough, it's not an easy fix to get rid of it.

I agree, but this is the mainstream religions we are talking about and it is quite easy to make a case that they are lying to us for the cash. That is fraud, so I just see it as a battle to get our police to start following the law and laying charges to fraudsters.

The trick would be to have enough cash to pay for a decent lawyer and get some charges laid. The domino effect would do the rest of the hard work.

Regards
DL

(April 7, 2018 at 2:58 pm)Chad32 Wrote: When something is ingrained in the culture enough, it's not an easy fix to get rid of it.

Agreed, but the easy access we now have to information is having a huge effect on religious belief. This is just one reason why this man's name should be writ large. Tim Berners-Lee.

Well atheism is a dogma, NDE's and reincarnation prove that. The global flood proves that the world is immersed in sin and Gabriel told me my wife is hot. Shiva proves thermodynamics, but the second premise disproves evolution. Plants can regrow therefore resurrection is a part of the law of biogenesis and I have faith that I will lose 21 ounces when I die.

Jesus proves everything I say and if you don't believe that you hate me and him and you are angry. There are no inconsistencies anywhere apart from abiogenesis. Nothing starts without a cause and that cause is the greatest thing ever because it must be, but the towel heads that came up with it got it wrong.

God hates slavery and the slaves loved it anyway because virgins and babies love slavery or genocide, but genocide was legit because bad babies may become badder. Babies that die horribly are welcome to have a lovely time with me anyway in a magical world of milk and honey. I know you would prefer beer and spliffs, but milk and honey it is.

There will be a reckoning, but I will suck some of you into a worm whole so a scumbag can make money with books glorifying the misery of those left behind. I am not sure if I will turn up pre or post tribulation, but Dad, who is a third of me but we don't share a plan, has it all figured out.

When you are with me, you can watch all the decent people that weren't quite convinced because, well, i tended to stay a bit silent, meditation and all. Well, they will not be happy, but, despite being okay peeps, and despite you being hateful arseholes, you can watch them burn.

You better believe I am the Buddha.