Adopting Religion for fear of what may transpire post death?

[Forsaken]

I am new to this forum so not sure if this has been already discussed.

The other day, I was having an interesting conversation with a friend who believes in god. He asked me "What if I was wrong? What if God exists and you realize that after death?" Well, I simply told him that there is nothing to be wrong about as I am steadfast to my belief that there is nothing such as god. The conversation should have ended there, but I took the liberty to ask him the same question. His response was something I was not expecting from someone who claims himself as a true devotee of god.

Basically what he mentioned was that he was playing it safe, and that is what majority of the religious people do (according to him). If he was wrong, no problem! It did not cost him a dime to believe in god, so if god did not exist, after his death, he is simply gone from the face of the earth and his body rotted away in his grave. But if he was right, then he is safe and will go to heaven for his beliefs.

This is what really opened my eyes. Probably the fear of what will happen in after-life is driving most people to believe in some form of god. If he exists, they are safe. If he does not, no problems. At least, they are leaving no stones unturned!

[Phaedra]

It's called Pascal's Wager, and it's bullshit. Wouldn't their god know that our belief wasn't sincere, what with being omniscient and all?

[ThinkingTom]

That's known as Pascals wager, it was a cleaver idea until you realize there are literally thousands of God with the concept of hell. Next time you talk to him you should ask him why doesn't hell follow Islam instead? Then explain to him if you don't follow Allah you'll be chucked in his hell. That should stump him, I've used that on a few people and they generally just stay quite.

I do agree lots of people join religion because of the fear of the unknown, some people should understand that we know enough to say that consciousness and everything that equals >You< is lost after death. Since there isn't any credible evidence for any time of afterlife there isn't any reason to believe in one. *Fingers cross from reincarnation though, I want to be a bird!*

[The Grand Nudger]

A wager, as the story goes, developed whilst playing a game of dice. It seems that christian apologists have been looking for ways to game whatever system they thought would grant them authority since time immemorial. Philosophy, science, whatever. Once you understand the rules you can start to form a strategy that allows you to circumvent them, lol. Calvinists, for example, have turned this into performance art, as have "creation scientists".

[Darth]

Theramintrees/Qualiasoup did a couple of videos on pascals wager, they are excellent as always, can't recommend those two highly enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXSjzCf1waA&hl

[mayor of simpleton]

Pascal's Wager (Gambit) has a few flaws that are perhaps worth pointing out. First, it might be a good idea to see how it is set up in a formal construct...

1. Either God exists or God doesn't exist.

2. A person can either believe that God exists or believe that God doesn't exist(from 1).

3. If God exists and you believe, you receive eternal salvation.

4. If God exists and you don't believe, you receive eternal damnation.

5. If God doesn't exist and you believe, you've been duped, have wasted time in religious observance, and have missed out on decadent enjoyments.

6. If God doesn't exist, and you don't believe, then you have avoided a false belief.

7. You have much more to gain by believing in God than not believing in him, and much more to lose by not believing in God than believing in him (from, 3, 4, 5, & 6)

8. It is more rational to believe that God exists than to believe that he doesn't exist (from 7).

God exists

Believe = Eternal salvation
Don't Believe = Eternal damnation

God doesn't exist

Believe = You've been duped, missed out on some sins
Don't Believe = You got it right


First, the god/deity in question would have to be a megalomanic. Very petty, lacking mercy and a bit of an egomanic. Considering that this god/deity created people who don't see fit to believe in him, then turn around and not forgiving them for being made as such is the attitude of a S.O.B. and a big time 'prick'.

Second, if this god/deity in question is supposed to be all knowing and thus and such, do you really suppose that 'claiming' a belief in him for the sake of "cheap fire insurance" would get past him? For that matter, if it did, what type of "omni-whatever supergod" is this? I suppose it's a case of one being hopful that god is a gullible sap.

“ Suppose there is a god who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. . .Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless God wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy. ” —Richard Carrier, The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven



Another point is that a lot of what Pascal Wagner deals with is probability. It is presented like a 50/50 chance. uuuhhh... is it really?

This is a quote from Rebbecca Goldstein that might make a bit more sense of this problem...

"If the probability of God's existence (ascertained by other means) is infinitesimal, then even if the cost of not believing in him is high, the overall expectation may not make it worthwhile to choose the "believe" row (after all, we take many other risks in life with severe possible costs but low probabilities, such as boarding an airplane). One can see how this invalidates Pascal's Wager by considering similar wagers. Say I told you that a fire-breathing dragon has moved into the next apartment and that unless you set out a bowl of marshmallows for him every night he will force his way into your apartment and roast you to a crisp. According to Pascal's wager, you should leave out the marshmallows. Of course you don't, even though you are taking a terrible risk in choosing not to believe in the dragon, because you don't assign a high enough probability to the dragon's existence to justify even the small inconvenience."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_fr...evelations

This link might be of help in understanding this particular fallacy.

Meow!

GREG

[Ace Otana]

Basically what he mentioned was that he was playing it safe, and that is what majority of the religious people do (according to him). If he was wrong, no problem! It did not cost him a dime to believe in god, so if god did not exist, after his death, he is simply gone from the face of the earth and his body rotted away in his grave.

Well he's wrong. What if he believed in the wrong god? Perhaps insulting any real god and ending up in hell for it? Perhaps Islam was the correct religion, perhaps Norse, ect. We could all end up in hell, just as we could all end up in heaven, but more likely we'll all end up back as we were before we existed.
What he like pretty much every theist is like, they won't ever except the possibility of being wrong and ending up in hell. They all believe that their immune to hell, they all believe they're going to heaven no matter how they've lived their lives.
The truth is, they are living in a fantasy world of their making. Because no one would invent a fantasy where they are faced with a most undesirable outcome.
To see a fantasy and recognise it is easy, to accept it, is a whole other matter and often too difficult to handle.

For all we know, we atheists end up in heaven for using our reason and judging things based on available evidence, and theists end up in hell for scaring and killing people for personal beliefs.

[The Grand Nudger]

The supposed creator of the human mind would probably appreciate it if the faithful used it more often. It's bordering on insultingly ungrateful, imho.

[Norfolk And Chance]

For all we know, we atheists end up in heaven for using our reason and judging things based on available evidence, and theists end up in hell for scaring and killing people for personal beliefs.

That would be fucking hilarious.

[Ace Otana]

For all we know, we atheists end up in heaven for using our reason and judging things based on available evidence, and theists end up in hell for scaring and killing people for personal beliefs.

That would be fucking hilarious.

We'd have very smug faces as we look down on them...