@Atlas: Your reply to my reply didn't address what I wrote. I was asking a genuine question and making a technical observation, that's all.

So I think we can surmise that the Quran doesn't require puberty. Therefor, your argument here is redundant because you're drawing on outside laws to stop child marriages, rather than Islam.

Now, you seem to be against child marriage, which is great. But you're not against it because the Quran is, it's because you're a better person than that. You deserve the credit for that opinion, not the book.

That's the thing about the abrahamics that really gets my goat.  When belief in magic book leads you to either deny or fail to recognize your own basic human decency (let alone the basic decency of others)....there's a problem with magic book. The culture that wrote the quran wasn't quite as brutish as other cultures of the time in regards to the context of this thread..but they were certainly no better than their own times version of a monticello slaver. Seeing a broad range of things we consider unacceptable today as..unfortunate..distasteful, even...but ultimately permissible and sanctioned by divinity.

Case in point. Puberty..really? That's the qurans defense? So..sometime between 7 and 13......a 40 year old man could marry a girl..with her consent? You don;t get to say things like this often...but at least the slave was a captive held against her will.... I can't imagine how fucked up a society would have to be to regularly produce 7-13 year old girls who dreamed of marrying their kindly old uncle....?

There are a lot of places in the USA where a 40 year old man can marry a 13 yo girl with the consent of her and her parents. That sort of thing happens thousands of times a year, though usually not with that big an age gap.

-and we recognize that it's regressive trash..closing laws and loopholes in that regard left, right, and center.  I was just reading a story about child bride tourism, ironically.

We certainly don't assert that this is the final word of the lord of creation.

(April 12, 2018 at 12:44 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Who cares...when you can just fuck your human property?  No marriage contract (or compliance, for that matter) required.  I mean..unless you count buying her from her previous owner..obvs.

This is a big issue for you, isn;t it..just eats away at your conscience.  Why not go with your gut...drop magic book like the filth it is?

You assumed -despite not having textual evidence from the Quran- that the book legalizes slavery. And built your pov based on that.

"Slavery" is a one sided obligation, but marriage contracts in Islam enforce "mutual" obligations. Men are obligated to work and feed the wife and the kids, while the wife provide a safe environment in the house. Both are allowed to have intercourse in exchange.

That doesn't seem like slavery to me. Who cares about a psychopath who uses the marriage contract's laws to abuse his spouse ?

Just stop, lol.  Neither you nor the countless apologists before you would have to tie your collective nuts into knots over slavery or child brides in magic book if they weren't there in the first place.

But..to answer your question, there at the end...not allah, apparently...and that's kindof a problem, huh...?  He's cool with spouse abuse, just like he's cool with child brides, just like he's cool with slavery...well regulated, ofc. 

(April 12, 2018 at 2:02 pm)robvalue Wrote: @Atlas: Your reply to my reply didn't address what I wrote. I was asking a genuine question and making a technical observation, that's all.

So I think we can surmise that the Quran doesn't require puberty. Therefor, your argument here is redundant because you're drawing on outside laws to stop child marriages, rather than Islam.

Now, you seem to be against child marriage, which is great. But you're not against it because the Quran is, it's because you're a better person than that. You deserve the credit for that opinion, not the book.

I wanted to refer to the severe criticism of Islam when an opinion suggested that it advocates pedophilia, but the criticism persisted even when a another opinion suggested that it doesn't advocate it; if not prohibiting it even.

I wouldn't say that puberty is not "required" in the Quran; rather "not stated" in the context of marriage. But it is stated elsewhere as a requirement, this is the longest verse in the whole book; it's about exactly this:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
( 282 )   O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah, his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah. And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

Witness must be "men" and "women"; of course the words "man" and "woman" refer to fully grown men and women; that's even from a linguistic perspective.

Just a note; women in the past weren't strong merchants, so it's normal that they might err in calculations.

So if we looked at marriage with same perspective, the witnesses and the bride and the husband must be men and women: and men are not children, women are not children.

---

(April 12, 2018 at 2:33 pm)Khemikal Wrote: That's the thing about the abrahamics that really gets my goat.  When belief in magic book leads you to either deny or fail to recognize your own basic human decency (let alone the basic decency of others)....there's a problem with magic book.  The culture that wrote the quran wasn't quite as brutish as other cultures of the time in regards to the context of this thread..but they were certainly no better than their own times version of a monticello slaver.  Seeing a broad range of things we consider unacceptable today as..unfortunate..distasteful, even...but ultimately permissible and sanctioned by divinity.

Case in point.  Puberty..really?  That's the qurans defense?  So..sometime between 7 and 13......a 40 year old man could marry a girl..with her consent?  You don;t get to say things like this often...but at least the slave was a captive held against her will....  I can't imagine how fucked up a society would have to be to regularly produce  7-13 year old girls who dreamed of marrying their kindly old uncle....?

I asked you before to provide a verse from the Quran to prove your point.
Something like "Go take slaves". 

But you failed to find a verse in the Quran that advocates slavery. I can't see the verse. All your assumption is built on a spider web. Mere accusation forged in the void.

You memory holed magic book, not my problem.  Find it yourself.  Maybe try reading it? If all else fails..maybe google..I know you have google...even though I doubt that you've ever read magic book.

(April 12, 2018 at 3:03 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: There are a lot of places in the USA where a 40 year old man can marry a 13 yo girl with the consent of her and her parents. That sort of thing happens thousands of times a year, though usually not with that big an age gap.

I didn't know that until now !
Then there are targeted campaigns against Islam, when things like the age of Aisha is brought up periodically

Yup, we have retrograde perverts here too...the difference being that our shitty laws can be and are being changed...what with not being the perfect and final word of almighty god.