In an essay entitled "The Failure of the Church and the Triumph of Reason," Robert Ingersoll wrote:

Quote:Christianity has controlled Christendom for at least fifteen hundred years.

During these centuries what good has the church done?

Did Christ or any of his apostles add to the sum of useful knowledge? Did they say one word in favor of any science, of any art? Did they teach their fellow-men how to make a living, how to overcome the obstructions of nature, how to prevent sickness—how to protect themselves from pain, from famine, from misery and rags?

Did they explain any of the phenomena of nature? Any of the facts that affect the life of man? Did they say anything in favor of investigation—of study—of thought? Did they teach the gospel of self-reliance, of industry—of honest effort? Can any farmer, mechanic, or scientist find in the New Testament one useful fact? Is there anything in the sacred book that can help the geologist, the astronomer, the biologist, the physician, the inventor—the manufacturer of any useful thing?

The answer in every case is "no."  There is nothing useful in the bible.  It's all hocus-pocus and shit designed to frighten the superstitious into obedience. 

I will take science in every case.  Religion is of no use to anyone.

(May 7, 2018 at 9:18 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 8:13 pm)Quick Wrote: Yes, I more or less straddle the line between agnostic and pantheist because I believe that there may or may not be a God that explains out existence and that if there is a God that this God likely is/was more just the push that put the universe into existence. That said, I do believe there are active effects of this supposed God's existence that are represented as phenomenon that cannot be explained.

You didn't ask me a question, so I was not quite sure how to respond.

Fair enough. I was basically challenging your self description as an agnostic. Given what you've just written it seems all the less likely. In response to the question "does a god exist", your answer would seem to be "yes, there are effects of this supposed God's existence that are represented as phenomenon that cannot be explained (otherwise)". Whether or not you are certain, your belief status where God/gods is concerned is affirmative. You have your reasons even if you're not completely certain. It isn't as though you don't think there is any way to know whether gods exist, you've just given one.

I don't claim to know for certainty that gods do not exist but until there is a very good reason to think there might be I choose to ignore the question. So in the meantime I'm a weak atheist: no belief in gods, no claim that they do not exist. But frankly I don't really care either. Do you?

If there was a God or gods how would that change how you live your life? Do suppose that would mean we'd have an afterlife as well?

I am not really sure what you are asking when you say "do you?" could you be more specific?

I think if I had evidence that there was a God, then I would probably appreciate life a lot more. I am not sure on the afterlife bit. I don't think that a God would necessitate an afterlife.

(May 7, 2018 at 9:21 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 8:43 pm)Quick Wrote: If that is the definition of what atheism is, I am not quite sure why this place exists considering it doesn't actually have a theory of its own. I guess I nailed it with my antithesis argument. That seems to be the basis for the entire belief system.

Well, in reality, you are right. There shouldn't even have to be a word to describe people that don't believe gods exist.

But the reality of the world is, that the majority does believe in gods, and their beliefs inform their actions. Theistic beliefs lead to many real world, negative consequences.

Atheism isn't an entire belief system. It is a position on only one claim. Theists claim gods exist, we are not convinced.

Every other belief a particular atheist has, that is not specifically the disbelief in the existence of gods, is outside the purview of atheism. Atheism is not even a worldview.

Fair enough. Not sure why you say Atheism isn't a world view however, that confuses the shit out of me honestly.

(May 7, 2018 at 9:21 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 8:43 pm)Quick Wrote: But then you provide a different definition of what an atheist is which confuses me because this definition looks a lot more like a pessimistic agnostic's beliefs.

I don't think I am defining it differently. Oxford defines it - Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. Which is the meaning I was using.

As far as agnosticism, I am an agnostic. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive positions.

Agnosticism is not some sort of middle ground, as many believe, between theism and atheism. Agnosticism/gnosticism is a position on knowledge, atheism/theism, is a position on belief/disbelief.

Thanks for clearing that up. But now I am really confused because you said atheism is a position on belief/disbelief which IMO are both basically the same thing.

(May 7, 2018 at 9:21 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 8:43 pm)Quick Wrote: I think not believing an unsupported claim is fine but it doesn't actually tell you much. I mean there are a lot of things I can simply not believe the claim of, but you don't see me giving a big up and all about those things. What exactly is the direction that atheism gives you? I guess this is a question I would be open hearing from others as well as yourself.

The belief in bigfoot does not lead to; people flying planes into buildings, trying to get pseudoscience taught in school science classes, people trying to legislate morality based on bigfoot beliefs, starting wars based on religious beliefs, etc, etc.

Atheism does not give me any direction. As I said before, atheism only describes one position on one claim.

I get my direction from myself.

My atheism is a natural outgrowth of my skepticism and critical thinking. Those skills came first.


And therefore, you disbelieve they don't exist. You are an atheist with regards to the Greek pantheon.

I can not prove that your god does not exist, either. But without evidence and reasoned argument to support the case that it does exist, what should be my justification to believe it does?


Agnostics take the position that whether a god exists is either unknown, and possibly, unknowable. This describes me. I am an agnostic.

Atheists disbelieve that gods exist. This also describes me. I am an atheist.

Atheism and agnosticism are answers to different questions.

My justification for believing what I do is that it gives a sense of purpose that I otherwise wouldn't have. Knowing I fit into something larger and significant gives me direction and motivation to be at peace. But my belief isn't an organized belief system like you see in christianity, islam, hinduism, rastafari (had fun with that one), or any other organized religion. It's simply the belief that there is something bigger than myself that is out there and that in knowing this, it gives me purpose. If I know I was meant to be here, even if it isn't necessarily true, this gives me enough justification for believing what I do.

(May 7, 2018 at 7:57 pm)Quick Wrote: I am just noting an observation when I talk about the dance.

IIRC, the reason for atheism is that they believe there is no God because there is no/ineffective evidence to support that there is a God, which leads people to believe there is no God or something very similar. Which, sure, but there is no evidence that life should exist either and yet here we are.

Meh, I just never believed.  It wasn't something I had to argue my way into or out of.  Could I today?  Could I pick apart this or that belief and assess it on grounds of evidence or logic or integrity?  Sure.  I was an atheist long before I knew how to do any of that, though..or even had any specific interest in it.  

Maybe I;m just not as mystified by our existence as you?

Now, I do see alot of people in some muddy ground between the faith of their childhood and atheism..playing with the idea of getting rid of the "organization" as though the organization were the issue...and I suppose I might understand that better and empathize with it more had I grown up in some shitty batshit religion..but I didn't. I don;t see your faith as distincly different, semantically different, or rhetorically different as the next common christers.

It;s the foundation thats busted...not the wallpaper.

(May 7, 2018 at 10:33 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 7:57 pm)Quick Wrote: I am just noting an observation when I talk about the dance.

IIRC, the reason for atheism is that they believe there is no God because there is no/ineffective evidence to support that there is a God, which leads people to believe there is no God or something very similar. Which, sure, but there is no evidence that life should exist either and yet here we are.

Meh, I just never believed.  It wasn't something I had to argue my way into or out of.  Could I today?  Could I pick apart this or that belief and assess it on grounds of evidence or logic or integrity?  Sure.  I was an atheist long before I knew how to do any of that, though..or even had any specific interest in it.  

Maybe I;m just not as mystified by our existence as you?

Now, I do see alot of people in some muddy ground between the faith of their childhood and atheism..playing with the idea of getting rid of the "organization" as though the organization were the issue...and I suppose I might understand that better and empathize with it more had I grown up in some shitty batshit religion..but I didn't. I don;t see your faith as distincly different, semantically different, or rhetorically different as the next common christers.

It;s the foundation thats busted...not the wallpaper.

There is something to be said for not growing up in a "believing" family. I think this radically changes the outlook of the person.

My belief is something that gives me purpose. I am not sure who you are comparing me to though. Could you specify that?

When you talk about the "foundation" I find wrestling with the belief in God a inherent part of being a human. I don't think just because someone believes there is a God means their perception of the world outside of belief in God is otherwise flawed.

(May 7, 2018 at 10:48 pm)Quick Wrote: There is something to be said for not growing up in a "believing" family. I think this radically changes the outlook of the person.

Who said anything about my family not believing, lol?  Me, man.  I didn;t believe.  

Quote:My belief is something that gives me purpose. I am not sure who you are comparing me to though. Could you specify that?

The very same believers you seek to distance yourself from.  I guess it;s nice that your beliefs give you purpose?  We put fake rabbits on tracks to give greyhounds purpose.  Fantasy works for them, too.  Until they catch the thing..then it;s nothing but tears and misery.  

Quote:When you talk about the "foundation" I find wrestling with the belief in God a inherent part of being a human. I don't think just because someone believes there is a God means their perception of the world outside of belief in God is otherwise flawed.

Then you;re simply wrong.  It may be an inherent part of you, but it;s not something I've struggled with.

---

Now..as to whether or not god belief indicates that a persons perception of the world outside god is flawed.....they seem to have a high rate of comorbidity.

Just look at all of the things you've gotten completely wrong about atheism and atheists?  Recall that you mentioned a "law of attraction" from the outset and proceeded to describe qm as rationally inexplicable, along with a range of other experiences you claimed to have but failed to specify in any way when asked..and that thusfar you;ve presented a sum total of two rationalizations for your beliefs.  One being "I don't know stuff, therefore god" in a handful of completely inane forms..and the other being "it give's me purpose".

So..yeah, I;d say that your perceptions, from this vantage point...look compromised. Now, does that compromised perception create your god belief..does the god belief create compromised perception..do they just sort of hang around each other and cut off blood flow to the brain cooperatively......can I answer yes to all three.....?

(May 7, 2018 at 10:56 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 10:48 pm)Quick Wrote: There is something to be said for not growing up in a "believing" family. I think this radically changes the outlook of the person.

Who said anything about my family not believing, lol?  Me, man.  I didn;t believe.  

Quote:My belief is something that gives me purpose. I am not sure who you are comparing me to though. Could you specify that?

The very same believers you seek to distance yourself from.  I guess it;s nice that your beliefs give you purpose?  We put fake rabbits on tracks to give greyhounds purpose.  Fantasy works for them, too.  Until they catch the thing..then it;s nothing but tears and misery.  

Quote:When you talk about the "foundation" I find wrestling with the belief in God a inherent part of being a human. I don't think just because someone believes there is a God means their perception of the world outside of belief in God is otherwise flawed.

Then you;re simply wrong.  It may be an inherent part of you, but it;s not something I've struggled with.

Did you grow up in a believing family? If you did, then you are going to believe what you were told, because, lol, kids learn from their parents.

I think the difference between myself and the christians gone atheist is that I understand that I have to believe in God because it's so ingraned in my neuropsychology from being brought up in a home that believed in God. *shrug*

And I don't believe you have never considered that God is real. I don't understand why you would be on this forum without an intrinsic motivation that is based on an antithesis to a belief that is so ingrained in the west that there is really no escaping the cultural influence on an individual from the idea of God. Unless you were immersed in a culture that didn't believe in God and yet your parents did, then I would say that opens the door for gray area, but otherwise I see no escaping it.

(May 7, 2018 at 11:10 pm)Quick Wrote: Did you grow up in a believing family? If you did, then you are going to believe what you were told, because, lol, kids learn from their parents.

If kids always believed what their parents believed then belief would have remained static since the beginning of time.  

Quote:I think the difference between myself and the christians gone atheist is that I understand that I have to believe in God because it's so ingraned in my neuropsychology from being brought up in a home that believed in God. *shrug*

So much for not being a hypocrite, huh?

Quote:And I don't believe you have never considered that God is real.

It;s amazing what you will and won;t believe...it truly is, lol.

Quote:I don't understand why you would be on this forum without an intrinsic motivation that is based on an antithesis to a belief that is so ingrained in the west that there is really no escaping the cultural influence on an individual from the idea of God. Unless you were immersed in a culture that didn't believe in God and yet your parents did, then I would say that opens the door for gray area, but otherwise I see no escaping it.

Say it with me "Hmn, well, I;d always thought that atheists -x-...but I guess I was wrong about that." "Hmn, well I -x-, but I guess not everybody would be like me."   There's no reason to double or triple down on some silly bit of bullshit.

(May 7, 2018 at 11:10 pm)Quick Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 10:56 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Who said anything about my family not believing, lol?  Me, man.  I didn;t believe.  

The very same believers you seek to distance yourself from.  I guess it;s nice that your beliefs give you purpose?  We put fake rabbits on tracks to give greyhounds purpose.  Fantasy works for them, too.  Until they catch the thing..then it;s nothing but tears and misery.  


Then you;re simply  wrong.  It may be an inherent part of you, but it;s not something I've struggled with.

Did you grow up in a believing family? If you did, then you are going to believe what you were told, because, lol, kids learn from their parents.

I think the difference between myself and the christians gone atheist is that I understand that I have to believe in God because it's so ingraned in my neuropsychology from being brought up in a home that believed in God. *shrug*

And I don't believe you have never considered that God is real. I don't understand why you would be on this forum without an intrinsic motivation that is based on an antithesis to a belief that is so ingrained in the west that there is really no escaping the cultural influence on an individual from the idea of God. Unless you were immersed in a culture that didn't believe in God and yet your parents did, then I would say that opens the door for gray area, but otherwise I see no escaping it.

Wow, read any good Poe lately?

Okay, you've had your lark.  Now why don't you tell us who you really are and what you actually believe.  Bye.

(May 7, 2018 at 11:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 11:10 pm)Quick Wrote: Did you grow up in a believing family? If you did, then you are going to believe what you were told, because, lol, kids learn from their parents.

If kids always believed what their parents believed then belief would have remained static since the beginning of time.

Kids grow into adults who can change their minds. 

(May 7, 2018 at 11:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 11:10 pm)Quick Wrote: I think the difference between myself and the christians gone atheist is that I understand that I have to believe in God because it's so ingraned in my neuropsychology from being brought up in a home that believed in God. *shrug*

So much for not being a hypocrite, huh?

Not sure what you mean...

(May 7, 2018 at 11:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 11:10 pm)Quick Wrote: And I don't believe you have never considered that God is real.

It;s amazing what you will and won;t believe...it truly is, lol.

The world is an amazing place.

(May 7, 2018 at 11:17 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 11:10 pm)Quick Wrote: I don't understand why you would be on this forum without an intrinsic motivation that is based on an antithesis to a belief that is so ingrained in the west that there is really no escaping the cultural influence on an individual from the idea of God. Unless you were immersed in a culture that didn't believe in God and yet your parents did, then I would say that opens the door for gray area, but otherwise I see no escaping it.

Say it with me "Hmn, well, I;d always thought that atheists -x-...but I guess I was wrong about that." "Hmn, well I -x-, but I guess not everybody would be like me."   There's no reason to double or triple down on some silly bit of bullshit.

I'm not. As you have implied, my beliefs are somewhat surprising to you.

---

(May 7, 2018 at 11:22 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 7, 2018 at 11:10 pm)Quick Wrote: Did you grow up in a believing family? If you did, then you are going to believe what you were told, because, lol, kids learn from their parents.

I think the difference between myself and the christians gone atheist is that I understand that I have to believe in God because it's so ingraned in my neuropsychology from being brought up in a home that believed in God. *shrug*

And I don't believe you have never considered that God is real. I don't understand why you would be on this forum without an intrinsic motivation that is based on an antithesis to a belief that is so ingrained in the west that there is really no escaping the cultural influence on an individual from the idea of God. Unless you were immersed in a culture that didn't believe in God and yet your parents did, then I would say that opens the door for gray area, but otherwise I see no escaping it.

Wow, read any good Poe lately?

Okay, you've had your lark.  Now why don't you tell us who you really are and what you actually believe.  Bye.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

(May 7, 2018 at 11:22 pm)Quick Wrote: Kids grow into adults who can change their minds. 

Didn't you -just- finishing telling us that you were neurologically wired for belief by early indoctrination? 

Quote:I'm not. As you have implied, my beliefs are somewhat surprising to you.

Probably not in the way you're imagining.  These little mini convos I;m having with you..this isn;t the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth time I;ve had to explain to someone that not knowing shit doesn;t "ergo god".  In that sense, your beliefs are entirely common. I guess I;ve been here a few years..and it wouldn;t surprise me if I;d heard this particular bit hundreds of times. Each time, the person holding it seems to believe that they;ve found something novel, and that they;re not like the rest of those other god believers. That's the part that gets old the quickest.