Science didn't begin when people broke off from the RCC God. It's been around longer than christianity.

(September 6, 2011 at 2:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Science didn't begin when people broke off from the RCC God. It's been around longer than christianity.

I dont believe the scientific method of peer review was. or am I wrong?

Philosophy, then natural philosophy, then science sure. Postulating "natural causes for natural phenomena" is I think the loosest possible definition for science (as it opposes religion or superstition). It would be unfair to strip early thinkers of their achievements because they did not have the tools or methodologies available to them that we have available to us. Without that simple statement science may never have been born. Some do consider them to be "pre-scientific" though.

I could opine near endlessly about the attempts made within and by religious tradition to explain the world around them. Why are we here? Where did we come from? Why do we die? Why must we suffer? All of these are great questions. It's hardly the sort of conversation about religion that I get the chance to engage in often, but as Ive said before, many times religions contained within them the best "science" of their time. All part of our journey to understanding our surroundings. There is a line though were some of the conclusions drawn were incorrect. I never blame the originators of these faiths for this, because they had no reason to believe otherwise and every reason to believe what they did (given the tools available). Religion was once very much based in empiricism. It just so happens that some of the evidence we once pointed to for god turns out to have a better explanation elsewhere. Recently (especially in the case of the RCC) religious traditions were active in the suppression of the pursuit of knowledge, which is unfortunate, as they were early pioneers in the field. I've found this particular conversation to be dissatisfying to both the religious and the irreligious, like most "shades of grey" arguments.

They were certainly pioneers and trying to move in the right direction.
My point is that without the methods employed more recently the results were spotty and undirected.
It is only when the full range of scientific method is employed that true progress can be made sustained and be reliable.

True enough, and there is most likely room for further refinement in methodology (there obviously being room to improve in breadth of knowledge). One of the greatest strengths of the whole undertaking as opposed to knowledge that is "set in stone" so-to-speak.

(September 6, 2011 at 3:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: ... Why are we here? Where did we come from? Why do we die? Why must we suffer? All of these are great questions.

Science doesn't really answer these questions either, any more than religion really does. It can tell us the mechanics relating to our existence, can describe the chemistry, etc, etc, etc, but as to why I am I and you are you and others are themselves seems like pretty well unanswerable to me. I'm talking about subjectivity, which seems to operate on a pretty random basis. I mean presumably Gadaffi hiding in a bunker or whatever (they haven't found him yet have they? - I haven't seen any news for hours) feels just as much "I" from his point of view as I do from mine (and you yours, obviously). Yet I've always thought that's a pretty weird phenomenon. Why can't we jump around into each others' IDs? Why is MY consciousness MINE and what happens to IT when I quit this mort... I mean when I DIE?

Well my guess is as good as yours (personally I assume its the same as "going to sleep" under anaesthetic when you have an op, but without the waking up the other end bit), and so is anyone else's, but basically anyone who claims to "know" about that kind of stuff HAS to be talking BS. Because, how come they get the special knowledge denied to everyone else? Only then you come to the "nice" goddists, these really intelligent ones, university and EVERYTHING, know wha' I mean? Right on top of stuff, brains like a Tardis, and then WALLOP you find they are full of the spirit of the lord and that. Wow man, gets me every time that one! Really does my head in.

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Shit!

I really DO ask for it, me!

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You could assume there's more than the chemistry, or the working bits if you like. I don't. Similarly, the question of why my consciousness is my own and why I cant hop into this or that guys probably has to do with my brain being pretty firmly planted in my own head (just a wild fucking guess). Science may not answer these questions to your satisfaction, but that's hardly the same as not having an answer.