(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 10:02 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: No. It is directly in the context of Genesis. Bleating the "out of context" mantra like a mindless sheep will not help your case.

Your god states that he doesn't. Is god lying?

How could he know it was wrong? He hadn't learned good from evil yet? Why did god intentionally place the tree there in the full knowledge that the serpent would turn up and Adam and eve would eat from the tree? According to you god knew it in advance. There was nothing Adam or eve could do about it? That is not "free will".

How would Eve know it was wrong? How would Eve know or understand the consequences of such an action? Why did Eve not drop dead? And Adam?

Sure, his plan, if such it can be called was for millennia of bloodshed and all manner of horror, followed by raping Mary to impregnate her with himself to give birth to himself so that he could sacrifice himself to himself to forgive everyone else for falling for the rigged game that he himself set up in the first place. And if he knew how it would turn out, nobody else had free will at all.

Because your god is that much of a prick. He could easily have prevented all of it.

Apology accepted.

The bible supports none of that.

How can I hate god? He doesn't exist to be hated. And I need make no effort to make god appear horrible. The bible, which you obviously have not read, does that all of it's lonesome.

Slavery. Explain slavery.

So not "loving" after all.

Sure. Have some incest. Noah's family. Lot's family, King David, King solomon and various others.

How about absurdity? Ex 9:6, god kills all the cattle in Egypt. Now that they are all dead, he kills them again in Ex 9:19 and again in Ex 12:29

Disagree.

No, He is not lying.  He is does not lie.

No, your god explicitly lies in the bible starting with adam.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: It was free will.  They had the choice not to eat of the tree but they did.

How would they know there was anything wrong with that? god told them not to, you say? How would they know that was right?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Eve probably knew what death looked like from animal death. 

How. A&E were vegetarians and no animals died until god killed them. Anything else is just you making crap up.
It isn't in the bible.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: They ended up dying after expulsion from the garden so they could multiply the earth.

That's stupid. How many more progeny could they produce if they didn't die?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Everyone has free will unless God speaks or works through them in moment.

Seems to me that you are attempting and failing to demonstrate gods omnipotence.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: There is a penalty for sin.

Who created the sin? Who created the punishment?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: God is just and needs to punish for sin. 

The bible claims that god is not even vaguely just. How did your god treat the Amalakites? Was that just? Is slavery just? Is a death penalty for homosexuality just? How about picking up sticks on the sabbath? Is that death penalty just?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: He offered himself as the sacrifice for that sin. 

What sacrifice? Are you now claiming that jesus is dead?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave us his pure righteousness and took on our sin upon Himself.  All glory be to God.

Then if true, why has sin NOT been removed? Why does your god consider slavery to be moral while the rest of the world does not? Why does the rest of the world consider genocide to be immoral and your god does not?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: It could be part of the war in heaven.

It could be part of a strawberry blancmange. That is meaningless speculation by precisely you.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: OK.

OK what?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: I believe it does.

Nobody can stop you from believing fairy stories. Rather odd in someone who claims to be an adult, no?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Disagree.

For some reason, you continue to imagine that such an answer answers anything.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: He allowed slavery but had many rules on it so it was not harsh slavery. 

ORLY? You can beat your slave as much as you wish and so long as they don't die of the beating within a couple of days then that is OK with you? That is one of your gods rules. Once again we discover that you are ignorant of your own bible.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: There is slavery in the world today still.

Sure. But that does not excuse your god's outright thuggery, and being more moral than your god, we are actually working to eliminate it, unlike your god who simply keeps on supporting it.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Loving but also can get angry like we can.  We are loving and get angry.  We are also to hate sin like he hates sin.

Oh. Now you claim that your god is neither perfect nor omnibenevolent. Your god is a capricious hateful thug.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: OK, one thing at a time.

You want that? Sure. Simply stop with your Gish Gallop and address one thing at a time. But you don't really want that because you know that all of your claims will be shredded for the morally repugnant crap they are. Somewhere you realise that you are more moral than the god you claim. Your problem is that you struggle to reconcile that fact.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: No way.  God first.  Then family.  Then country.

So like Andrea Yeats, you would be OK with killing your own children?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 10:11 am)Kit Wrote: He means those pretend ID scientists.

No, those brilliant PhD scientists from ID.

Once again, imaginary figures.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:20 am)Kit Wrote: Sings:

A theistically biased interpretation of scripture helps the bullshit indoctrinate, helps the bullshit indoctrinate, helps the bullshit indoctrinate.

That's a horrible song.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:26 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:19 am)possibletarian Wrote: Of course you do, but that does not make anything correct.


On the contrary doesn't the bible say 'He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. ' according to the bible all things including the material are supernatural in their bonding. Therefore all sin, death and evil are his too including our minds.


Then what's the point of torturing people in the first place, such idiocy


How

 

Yes but if you have no free will, scripture supporting it means nothing, (much like the sun does not circle the earth) and as for science as I understand it is going in the opposite direction.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/...-free-will

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc...ll/480750/

There are many other such articles from science foundations, again the bible is being proven wrong, in fact the very core of belief is seen as under threat.

Quote:I just agree to disagree.

True, He does hold everything together.  That is why I keep saying He is providential over His creation.

The suffering has to do with the war in heaven where the devil and his followers rebelled against God.  Additionally, the suffering has to do with the disobedience and sin of man.

Scripture and science and my own intuition I was designed with.

I disagree.  See http://www.godandscience.org/ for more information.

That would surely mean that suffering is god designed, along with every evil thought.

However science is definitely going against free will, your site has to support it or its whole theology comes crashing down.

Why do you trust your own intuition when it comes to free will, how would you know ?

You need to edit that.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:23 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:16 am)CDF47 Wrote: Don't twist my words.  God can choose to punish down the generations due to bad leadership of parents.  It is all due to the fall of man and sin.  Or, God can use the defective child to accomplish amazing feats and give all glory to God as God gives glory back to the person.  It is like a good leader and good follower.  The follower gives praise to his leader while the leader gives praise to his follower. 

Because of sin and the fall of man there are imperfections in this world like I said previously.  That is the reason for all the problems in this world and death and suffering itself.

I did not twist your words. This is precisely what you are saying to me.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:08 am)CDF47 Wrote: Could be due to sin of the parents (punishment sometimes goes down the generations as stated in Scripture).  Could be for God's glory as the defective child shows great capability and gives all glory to God.  

But OK let's ask more questions.

Why does your god punish innocent babies with birth defects because of the actions of its parents?

How does a baby with a birth defect add to your god's glory?

Does a baby or fetus have free will?

Fair enough.  I hope we are clear on what I said now.  No, hard feelings.

It is His will, as stated in Scripture, that sin can be punished down the generations.  However, life is only temporary and that child may turn out to be amazing despite the birth defects.  We all have birth defects to varying degrees.  Nobody is perfect.  We are all designed to decay and die.  The entire universe is designed to die.

Again, if the child that is defective accomplishes great achievements and is a Christian, glory is given to God.

No, the fetus is being designed in the womb by the Lord.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:28 am)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:20 am)Kit Wrote: Sings:

A theistically biased interpretation of scripture helps the bullshit indoctrinate, helps the bullshit indoctrinate, helps the bullshit indoctrinate.

That's a horrible song.

Less horrible in its consequences than the innumerable vomit inducing drivel praising the “Lord” and “Jesus”.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:24 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:08 am)CDF47 Wrote: Could be due to sin of the parents (punishment sometimes goes down the generations as stated in Scripture).  Could be for God's glory as the defective child shows great capability and gives all glory to God.  Could be for other reasons of His choosing.  It all has to do with the fall of man and sin.

Seriously, as i understand what Christians believe about life, is that at the moment of conception god puts life into us, each a completely new spirit, void of sin (how can it have sinned if a new creation) and he puts this innocent into a deformed body.?

Its not even sensible

God does choose His elect.  He also gives people the free will choice to choose Him or not.  There are no fence sitters in the end.  Either choose God (the Savior Jesus Christ) or the devil.  Every child has original sin due to the fall of man when Adam disobeyed God.  Our ultimate earthy father and leader failed and the sin gets carried down.  

Yes, it is.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:32 am)CDF47 Wrote: It is His will, as stated in Scripture, that sin can be punished down the generations.  However, life is only temporary and that child may turn out to be amazing despite the birth defects.  We all have birth defects to varying degrees.  Nobody is perfect.  We are all designed to decay and die.  The entire universe is designed to die.

Again, if the child that is defective accomplishes great achievements and is a Christian, glory is given to God.

No, the fetus is being designed in the womb by the Lord.

Why does your god design fetuses in the womb with defects who then die before they are born?

(May 16, 2018 at 11:41 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:32 am)CDF47 Wrote: It is His will, as stated in Scripture, that sin can be punished down the generations.  However, life is only temporary and that child may turn out to be amazing despite the birth defects.  We all have birth defects to varying degrees.  Nobody is perfect.  We are all designed to decay and die.  The entire universe is designed to die.

Again, if the child that is defective accomplishes great achievements and is a Christian, glory is given to God.

No, the fetus is being designed in the womb by the Lord.

Why does your god design fetuses in the womb with defects who then die before they are born?

If your dad had exercised his free will and remembered to take a few seconds to ingest a breath mint prior to the theoretically ceremonial act, and as a result a different sperm from his wad met the same egg from your mother, then someone else would be here who is different from you, so god’s design is thwarted?

How do you know god’s Design wasn’t encapsulated in the elected sperm, lot number 462, serial number 15363738?  And as a result of your dad’s free will to ingest onion and garlic on the critical night and the need for a breadthmint before the consummating act, the holy sperm missed and it was the common sperm, lot 463, serial number 15363742, that met the elected egg to produce you instead of god’s design?

Thus you are a violation of god’s design thanks to the free will of your parents?

I am telling you, there is no place in heaven for the likes of you.

(May 16, 2018 at 11:26 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Disagree.

No, He is not lying.  He is does not lie.

No, your god explicitly lies in the bible starting with adam.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: It was free will.  They had the choice not to eat of the tree but they did.

How would they know there was anything wrong with that? god told them not to, you say? How would they know that was right?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Eve probably knew what death looked like from animal death. 

How. A&E were vegetarians and no animals died until god killed them. Anything else is just you making crap up.
It isn't in the bible.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: They ended up dying after expulsion from the garden so they could multiply the earth.

That's stupid. How many more progeny could they produce if they didn't die?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Everyone has free will unless God speaks or works through them in moment.

Seems to me that you are attempting and failing to demonstrate gods omnipotence.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: There is a penalty for sin.

Who created the sin? Who created the punishment?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: God is just and needs to punish for sin. 

The bible claims that god is not even vaguely just. How did your god treat the Amalakites? Was that just? Is slavery just? Is a death penalty for homosexuality just? How about picking up sticks on the sabbath? Is that death penalty just?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: He offered himself as the sacrifice for that sin. 

What sacrifice? Are you now claiming that jesus is dead?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: He gave us his pure righteousness and took on our sin upon Himself.  All glory be to God.

Then if true, why has sin NOT been removed? Why does your god consider slavery to be moral while the rest of the world does not? Why does the rest of the world consider genocide to be immoral and your god does not?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: It could be part of the war in heaven.

It could be part of a strawberry blancmange. That is meaningless speculation by precisely you.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: OK.

OK what?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: I believe it does.

Nobody can stop you from believing fairy stories. Rather odd in someone who claims to be an adult, no?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Disagree.

For some reason, you continue to imagine that such an answer answers anything.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: He allowed slavery but had many rules on it so it was not harsh slavery. 

ORLY? You can beat your slave as much as you wish and so long as they don't die of the beating within a couple of days then that is OK with you? That is one of your gods rules. Once again we discover that you are ignorant of your own bible.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: There is slavery in the world today still.

Sure. But that does not excuse your god's outright thuggery, and being more moral than your god, we are actually working to eliminate it, unlike your god who simply keeps on supporting it.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: Loving but also can get angry like we can.  We are loving and get angry.  We are also to hate sin like he hates sin.

Oh. Now you claim that your god is neither perfect nor omnibenevolent. Your god is a capricious hateful thug.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: OK, one thing at a time.

You want that? Sure. Simply stop with your Gish Gallop and address one thing at a time. But you don't really want that because you know that all of your claims will be shredded for the morally repugnant crap they are. Somewhere you realise that you are more moral than the god you claim. Your problem is that you struggle to reconcile that fact.

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: No way.  God first.  Then family.  Then country.

So like Andrea Yeats, you would be OK with killing your own children?

(May 16, 2018 at 10:13 am)CDF47 Wrote: No, those brilliant PhD scientists from ID.

Once again, imaginary figures.

No, He doesn't.

God told them not to and they ate from the tree.  They knowingly disobeyed God and the fall of man occurred.

I believe there was animal death in Eden.

That's not stupid.  They had to multiple the earth after leaving the Eden.

God works through people at His will as stated in the Scriptures.

The devil was the first during the war in heaven.  Adam was the first man to sin.  God decides the punishment for sin.

If God decides the penalty it is just.  For instance, picking up sticks, after God said not to work.  God knew that man in his heart was disobeying him so killed him.  God can take our lives at his will as He has given us life.  The slavery had a time limit on it and it was not to be harsh.  The incest when it happened was only to multiply the land.  No one is designed to be homosexual.  It goes against the design.  That person should repent and pray and become straight.  God wiped out a certain people because they were wicked and He would at times give that land to His chosen people.

Jesus died and rose 3 days later.  The Son of God, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit of the Godhead, suffered and died to atone for our sins as the chosen lamb.  He is the Messiah.  Yeshua HaMashiach is the living Son of God!

The world still moves on as more souls are created on the earth to as many as God wills.  The end will come and that will be the end of sin.  The Lord will return in His full glory and power and bring up His people and destroy the wicked.  Slavery was common in the times of the OT.  God gave rules for un-harsh slavery.  Slavery continues today in the world and sometimes it is harsh.  God wiped out people in big groups when they were exceedingly wicked.

Not it's not.


Re-read question and response.

I believe in the Lord.  Science backs up a Creator.

Disagree.

In those times corporeal punishment for rebellion was common and the Lord allows that.  Today, people should spank their children more for disobedience so they grow up to be more obedient.  I am not talking about child abuse just a smack on the ass to get the inline from time to time.

It is God's will.

No He's not.  He has a righteous anger and hatred of evil.

Disagree.

Never.

Disagree.

---

(May 16, 2018 at 11:29 am)possibletarian Wrote:

Quote:I just agree to disagree.

True, He does hold everything together.  That is why I keep saying He is providential over His creation.

The suffering has to do with the war in heaven where the devil and his followers rebelled against God.  Additionally, the suffering has to do with the disobedience and sin of man.

Scripture and science and my own intuition I was designed with.

I disagree.  See http://www.godandscience.org/ for more information.

That would surely mean that suffering is god designed, along with every evil thought.

However science is definitely going against free will, your site has to support it or its whole theology comes crashing down.

Why do you trust your own intuition when it comes to free will, how would you know ?

No, God is not evil but He allows evil to run its course.  God is totally holy and good.  

Some scientists do not believe in free will and others do at this time.  Not all of science is going against it.

I just trust my intuition.  I listen to my own inner-voice.

---

(May 16, 2018 at 11:33 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:28 am)CDF47 Wrote: That's a horrible song.

Less horrible in its consequences than the innumerable vomit inducing drivel praising the “Lord” and “Jesus”.

It is best to love the lord with all your heart, mind, and soul.  I praise the Lord and King Jesus!

---

(May 16, 2018 at 11:41 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:32 am)CDF47 Wrote: It is His will, as stated in Scripture, that sin can be punished down the generations.  However, life is only temporary and that child may turn out to be amazing despite the birth defects.  We all have birth defects to varying degrees.  Nobody is perfect.  We are all designed to decay and die.  The entire universe is designed to die.

Again, if the child that is defective accomplishes great achievements and is a Christian, glory is given to God.

No, the fetus is being designed in the womb by the Lord.

Why does your god design fetuses in the womb with defects who then die before they are born?

It's due to sin and the fall of man.  That's why there are defects in the creation.

---

(May 16, 2018 at 11:49 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(May 16, 2018 at 11:41 am)Mathilda Wrote: Why does your god design fetuses in the womb with defects who then die before they are born?

If your dad had exercised his free will and remembered to take a few seconds to ingest a breath mint prior to the theoretically ceremonial act, and as a result a different sperm from his wad met the same egg from your mother, then someone else would be here who is different from you, so god’s design is thwarted?

How do you know god’s Design wasn’t encapsulated in the elected sperm, lot number 462, serial number 15363738?  And as a result of your dad’s free will to ingest onion and garlic on the critical night and the need for a breadthmint before the consummating act, the holy sperm missed and it was the common sperm, lot 463, serial number 15363742, that met the elected egg to produce you instead of god’s design?

Thus you are a violation of god’s design thanks to the free will of your parents?

I am telling you, there is no place in heaven for the likes of you.

Disagree.