(September 8, 2011 at 2:59 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote: It ignores the facts of the universe; for example 99.9999999999999% recurring of the universe is hostile to life, most matter in the unvierse is concentrated into black holes which hoover up large tracts of time and space,

Not forgetting most matter in the Universe was annihilated in the beginning with nearly all the anti-matter when the two made contact.

Yeah, the finely-tuned-for-life-universe argument is much like a zombie. It was shot to the head, its deader than shit, yet theists keep bringing it back to feed on the brains of the gullible, only for us to dispatch the undead abomination once more with another well aimed headshot.

(September 7, 2011 at 7:52 pm)Diamond-Deist Wrote:

(September 7, 2011 at 7:33 pm)little_monkey Wrote: I'm not sure if the universe is completely ordered. Take the surface of the sun, or that of Jupiter, there's lots of chaos there. A lot of the matter in the galaxy is just nebula. Boil water, and see how frenetic the vapor escapes. Right now, our theory says that the universe is accelerating, for how long, we can't say. Plus, QM says empty space is full of quantum fluctuations. None of that tells me that the universe is ordered. Maybe parts of it, but all of it? I don't think so.

Chaos as in action yes but not entirely? gravity? the fact that the elements make up everything the universe needs?

Life needs a number of elements to even exist we happen to have them in abundance, minus a few elements everything that exists could just be rock.

This is like winning the lottery. Millions buy tickets but only one wins. Now he might think that this was his fate, that his winning happened by design. Not so with the millions who didn't win.

The earth has all the ingredients to have life. But in the cosmos, there are gazillions of solar systems. That some might have an inhabitable planet to life, like earth, is just the luck of the draw. It has nothing to do with your claim that the universe is ordered.

As to gravity , it comprises 30% of the universe, and ordinary matter, a measly 3%.

(September 8, 2011 at 8:55 am)little_monkey Wrote: This is like winning the lottery. Millions buy tickets but only one wins. Now he might think that this was his fate, that his winning happened by design. Not so with the millions who didn't win.

The earth has all the ingredients to have life. But in the cosmos, there are gazillions of solar systems. That some might have an inhabitable planet to life, like earth, is just the luck of the draw. It has nothing to do with your claim that the universe is ordered.

As to gravity , it comprises 30% of the universe, and ordinary matter, a measly 3%.

I think I should highlight a couple of points here, I definitley don't think I was predestined to win the chance of life I completely agree with you on that.

Also your point on uninhabitable planets sure, but the issue I have is that it does not change the fact that you need an entire almost lifeless universe to complete the picture or we don't have a universe and the result would be a fairy tale mythical one not one based in reality.

I really don't think people appreciate my core view, I do in no way think this universe is managed at all, it's random but the laws of nature/physics are at work in plain view and no laws can come from chaos ..... none.

Just looking at the formation of planets of the creation of stars all of it, the convergence aspect of it all, in a chaos only universe hydrogen atoms wouldn't form, there would be no gravity, no sense of anything.

If you have a black empty chamber and leave it for a million years when you return and open the door it will still be empty.

That is space, empty space, not only is our universe not empty but it's teaming with the properties needed to create.

It's creation properties alone mean to me that there is more at work with it's inception than pure random meaningless chaos.

According to modern physics all that you have said above is wrong. Including the empty chamber of space which would incidentally never be empty given quantum effects and would be full of virtual particle pairs with a staggering degree of potential energy.

Of course Deist supplies his own myths for this one in the "empty chamber'. analogy. There is nothing in our body of scientific knowledge that states that the universe came from nothing. The universe cam from "we don't know". He supplies a myth because he has a desire to equivocate the origins of our universe with mythology. Myths need deities and he has one in mind.

Yet.....

(September 8, 2011 at 11:18 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote: According to modern physics all that you have said above is wrong. Including the empty chamber of space which would incidentally never be empty given quantum effects and would be full of virtual particle pairs with a staggering degree of potential energy.

What even a vacuum chamber, I thought they've done things like that already?

According to modern physics? that in itself is a position of cause and effect so I don't take your point considering true random chaotic behaviour is unable to be bottled in that position.

Please I am interested though in learning if I've misunderstood, you sound like you know what your talking about so just so I get it and can cross referrence it what did I say which you believe is wrong?

Highlight a couple of sentences so I can form a position?

No space is truly empty because of what goes on at the quantum level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam

(September 8, 2011 at 12:25 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: No space is truly empty because of what goes on at the quantum level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam

Is this not just a theory?

"Quantum foam, also referred to as spacetime foam, is a concept in quantum mechanics,"

Quantum foam is theorized to be created by virtual particles of very high energy.

Has this foam been proven?

(September 8, 2011 at 3:30 pm)Diamond-Deist Wrote: Is this not just a theory?

Groan. Not this again.

"Theory" in science =/= "Theory" in common usage.

Quote:Has this foam been proven?

This is physics. Mathematics is down the hall.