(June 24, 2018 at 8:30 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(June 24, 2018 at 8:17 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: You could dramatically increase the portion of taxes that illegal immigrants pay if you made them all citizens.

Or, you could stop funding dictators around the world, stop selling weapons to governments known for their poor human rights, and most importantly: stop Comedy shows like the invasion of  Iraq and Afghanistan.

History repeats itself, and Rome's scenario will happen again. Then you can eat your taxes instead of food.

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Don't defend this fucked up system; please. This is a system that risen on invasions and mass murder.
It thrives via war economy and bank scams

(June 24, 2018 at 8:17 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: You could dramatically increase the portion of taxes that illegal immigrants pay if you made them all citizens.

Yup amazing how simple that solution is.Kind of makes all my links seem redundant 

(June 24, 2018 at 5:43 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 23, 2018 at 11:52 pm)FlyingNarwhal Wrote: See here's the thing, I don't mind fact checking and looking into the sources.  Reason being is that we live in a time now where people and organizations will use statistics in a purposefully obfuscating manner to hide what they don't want seen, and promote what they're looking to sell.  Huffpost of course has their agenda, the other sources were definitely more fair though.  So I will do a quick breakdown of each article, and give my synopsis at the bottom.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/no-...527d6780b0

CLAIM: Illegal immigrants DO NOT receive Children's Health Insurance, Disability, SNAP, health insurance via ACA, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Welfare.  They DO receive Emergency Medicaid, Schooling, Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (for low income pregnant women and children up to the age of five that are at nutritional risk).

This is true although they did leave out a little something.  Undocumented immigrants are also allowed to take advantage of the child tax credit, in fact in 2010 non citizens received $4.2 billion from this tax credit.  This is actually supported from your own fourth source.  Now to be fair, they did change that law the same year so that only filers with children with valid social security numbers could obtain these credits.  So I did a quick search to see how much those benefits have decreased, turns out in 2013 non citizens filed for $6 billion worth of child tax credits.  Source.

CLAIM: According to a 2010 report, undocumented immigrants pay $90 billion in taxes and only receive $5 billion in benefits.  Also in 2010 undocumented immigrants paid $10.6 billion in state and local taxes.

I included the source of their claim because because in all honesty I can find nowhere in their source that claims undocumented immigrants pay $90 billion in taxes.  In fact from what I've been able to pull together, they pay $23.6 billion in federal tax, $13 billion in Social Security, and $12 billion in state and local taxes.  I wasn't able to find any hard data on what they pay into Medicaid, but considering the tax rate is about a quarter of the rate for SSA, lets say they pay $3 billion into it.  That's a grand total of $51.6 billion.  And we already know that they receive at least $6 billion from Child Tax Credits, so it's safe to say they received more than $5 billion in benefits.  In fact, again from your own source it's estimated that undocumented immigrants actually receive $11.64 billion in benefits.

CLAIM: 50-75% of undocumented immigrants pay taxes.

False.  As I included in my last post, we know there are at least 11 million undocumented immigrants, of which only 4.4 million filed tax returns.  That is less than 50%.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Myths_and_..._pay_taxes

CLAIM: Illegal immigrants pay taxes

Again, a false truth.  Yes illegal immigrants pay taxes, a large portion (one could even argue a majority) do not.  It's the equivalent of saying "I pay my bills," when I only pay half of them.  Yes I pay my bills, just not all of them.  The stats that they use are the same that have already been discussed, so I won't go any further.

https://www.statista.com/chart/6129/how-...rants-pay/

This one doesn't go into too much detail, just tallies up what illegal immigrants pay in state & local taxes, which has already been discussed in previous .  Other than that it just confirms how much in benefits they receive.  And it also mentions a half truth that Donald Trump used when talking about the Child Tax Credit, which I already brought up in the response to the HuffPo article.

https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do...explainer/

Got no problem with this one, I actually used this for a few of my sources.




Total taxes paid into the US by illegal immigrants is roughly $51.6 billion across 11 million people.  US citizens paid $1.48 trillion in federal income tax, $846.2 billion in state taxes, 791.3 billion in social security, and roughly $197.8 billion, for a grand total of $3.3 trillion across 315 million people.  Now lets not forget that taxes and population of undocumented immigrants is part of that, so if we subtract it out we are really talking $3.26 trillion across 304 million people.

So where does this data get us?  If we divide the taxes paid by the amount of people, we get a rough dollar amount paid on average per capita.  For illegal immigrants, they are paying $4690.91 per capita.  For US citizens, they are paying $10,723.68 per capita.  So US citizens are effectively paying more than double in taxes.  Wait a second, that doesn't seem right.  Because it's not!  We didn't take into account that only 40% of immigrants filed federal tax returns, and those taxes include federal income tax, SSA, and Medicare which is roughly 75% of the total taxes paid.  That brings the average taxes paid for illegal immigrants down to $3,283.64 per capita.

Now lets bring it back to an effective tax rate between groups.  In my post about state & local taxes my sources indicated that illegal immigrants average roughly $30,100 per household with an average household size of 2.29 people.  US citizens averaged a much higher with an average household earning $73,298 with an average household size of 2.54.  When we use these numbers in conjunction with taxes paid per capita, we have an average total tax rate of 24.65% per illegal immigrant household and 37.16% for US citizen households.

In conclusion, do some illegal immigrants pay taxes?  Yes.  Does an overwhelming majority?  No.  So much so in fact, that between both populations, American citizens have a 50% higher rate of tax then illegal immigrants do and pay and additional 12.5% on income.

As an aside, this was way too much effort to put into a post.  Looking back, I'm questioning my life.

That is not the conclusion, about half of illegal immigrants file tax returns but the numbers are skewed because the majority of illegal immigrants don't have access to jobs that pay them on the books and there is a risk for illegal immigrants to file tax returns, it creates a paper trail and could lead to deportation. Also the illegal immigrants that do file income tax do not have access to the tax credit, Social Security, and Medicare.

So the reason that illegal immigrants don't file tax returns is because they are breaking the law...again.  It is illegal to work "off the books."  Even I, as an American citizen, am not allowed to work off the books.  Besides the point that is not an excuse to not pay taxes.  Illegal immigrants pay taxes by filing for an Individual Tax Identification Number, which requires basic info to receive.  They can then use that number in lieu of a Social Security number.  From there, if an illegal immigrant wishes to do so there are numerous ways they can pay their taxes, probably the best way being to fill out Form 4852 instead of having a W2 and send it with their form 1040.  There is also no risk for illegal immigrants to file tax returns, there are strict federal privacy laws that revolve around an individuals tax info.  The IRS and the SSA cannot share that info with law enforcement agencies.

I've said it twice now as well and have provided sources for them, so if you choose to dispute please provide your own sources:

1. I am well aware that illegal immigrants DO NOT have access to Social Security or Medicare, I have never disputed that.
   
2. Illegal Immigrants DO receive the Child Tax Credit as well as emergency Medicaid (for emergency services).
   

I will leave you with this source from from the Treasury Department that is literally titled, Individuals Who Are Not Authorized to Work in the United States Were Paid $4.2 Billion in Refundable Credits."

(June 24, 2018 at 10:39 am)FlyingNarwhal Wrote:

(June 24, 2018 at 5:43 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: That is not the conclusion, about half of illegal immigrants file tax returns but the numbers are skewed because the majority of illegal immigrants don't have access to jobs that pay them on the books and there is a risk for illegal immigrants to file tax returns, it creates a paper trail and could lead to deportation. Also the illegal immigrants that do file income tax do not have access to the tax credit, Social Security, and Medicare.

So the reason that illegal immigrants don't file tax returns is because they are breaking the law...again.  It is illegal to work "off the books."  Even I, as an American citizen, am not allowed to work off the books.  Besides the point that is not an excuse to not pay taxes.  Illegal immigrants pay taxes by filing for an Individual Tax Identification Number, which requires basic info to receive.  They can then use that number in lieu of a Social Security number.  From there, if an illegal immigrant wishes to do so there are numerous ways they can pay their taxes, probably the best way being to fill out Form 4852 instead of having a W2 and send it with their form 1040.  There is also no risk for illegal immigrants to file tax returns, there are strict federal privacy laws that revolve around an individuals tax info.  The IRS and the SSA cannot share that info with law enforcement agencies.

I've said it twice now as well and have provided sources for them, so if you choose to dispute please provide your own sources:

1. I am well aware that illegal immigrants DO NOT have access to Social Security or Medicare, I have never disputed that.
   
2. Illegal Immigrants DO receive the Child Tax Credit as well as emergency Medicaid (for emergency services).
   

I will leave you with this source from from the Treasury Department that is literally titled, Individuals Who Are Not Authorized to Work in the United States Were Paid $4.2 Billion in Refundable Credits."

Okay, wait.  So, if only those undocumented immigrants who are using an ITIN to file taxes with the IRS are eligible for the Child Tax Credit, then what’s the gripe?  If they’re paying their taxes why shouldn’t they receive that credit as any other working, tax-paying individual?  Simply because they’re here illegally? That’s not really much of an argument. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding something here.

(June 24, 2018 at 8:17 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: You could dramatically increase the portion of taxes that illegal immigrants pay if you made them all citizens.

Not necessarily.  As many have pointed out illegal immigrants do not receive many benefits because they are not citizens, in fact the immigrants that DO pay taxes, pay out more than they receive, yes.  Once they become citizens, it's a different story.  We know that about half of the illegal immigrant population have not attained a high school diploma or equivalent, well above the national average.  Half the population can also neither speak English, or not speak it well.  We also know that on average a household only makes $30,100.  Between lack of education and language barriers, this makes lifting yourself out of poverty unlikely.  Instead what will more likely happen is the benefits that were not available prior to amnesty will now be used, creating a tax deficit for a large portion of the population given amnesty.

If we are going to entertain amnesty, we also need to think of what rules would be creating to allow this path to citizenship.  And there are a lot of questions that need answering to implement those rules.  Should they have to pay a fee/fine?  Obviously what they did was illegal, we have a system in place to grant citizenship to people wishing to immigrate to the US.  How much should that fine be?  If the average illegal immigrant family is making $30,100, we can't quite fine them $10,000 and expect them to pay it.  Should the fine cover the estimated average cost it will be to provide amnesty, therefore relieving current citizens the tax burden of doing so?  Should they have to pay back taxes?  Surely they should, I mean we are talking a large portion of the population willfully neglected to pay taxes.  Ask Wesley Snipes how that worked out for him.  Should we imprison those that didn't pay taxes?  Won't they become an even further tax burden at that point?  If they agree to pay back taxes, what time frame do we give them and do we imprison them if they fail to pay in full within the allotted time?  Will amnesty solve the problem of illegal immigration?  How does this affect our infrastructure?  Do they get moved to the front of the line or back of the line to be granted citizenship?  Do we perform background checks first?  Should they need to learn English?

In my opinion, I would be willing to give amnesty to those that have already been paying taxes.  What a country should be looking for in it's citizens is those that are willing to contribute to the benefit of everyone.  That's what taxes are.  We pay taxes so we can all benefit.  I still however, think giving amnesty to even the tax paying portion of illegal immigrants to be unfair to immigrants that came here through legal channels and waited patiently.  It's a slap in their face, and what they did was still wrong.  But it is a compromise I am willing to make.

Also it's worth keeping in mind that we gave amnesty to roughly 3 million undocumented immigrants in 1986, and it got us 11 million just 25 years later.  If we provide amnesty, even if only in limited fashion, we need to upgrade our border laws and enforce them to a high degree.  We also need to take a look at our immigration policies and see if there are ways that we can improve/update them to make legal immigration easier/faster if it allows.  But what we don't want to be doing is providing amnesty to large swathes of illegal immigrants every couple of decades, it defeats the purpose of having an immigration policy in the first place.  We need to make sure that employers of illegal immigrants are punished, find ways to disincentivize employers from hiring them, make it more difficult to be hired if you are undocumented, enforce our borders, and enforce immigration policy.

(June 24, 2018 at 8:45 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 24, 2018 at 8:30 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Or, you could stop funding dictators around the world, stop selling weapons to governments known for their poor human rights, and most importantly: stop Comedy shows like the invasion of  Iraq and Afghanistan.

History repeats itself, and Rome's scenario will happen again. Then you can eat your taxes instead of food.

---

Don't defend this fucked up system; please. This is a system that risen on invasions and mass murder.
It thrives via war economy and bank scams

Blah Blah from my side indeed, I mean what did I expect? you believe Israel is a "legitimate" country for God's sake.

---

It's the heartless that make me sure I made the right choice when I believed in the Quran.
Keep immigrants out and if you're French; remember to vote Le Pen

(June 24, 2018 at 11:06 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(June 24, 2018 at 10:39 am)FlyingNarwhal Wrote: So the reason that illegal immigrants don't file tax returns is because they are breaking the law...again.  It is illegal to work "off the books."  Even I, as an American citizen, am not allowed to work off the books.  Besides the point that is not an excuse to not pay taxes.  Illegal immigrants pay taxes by filing for an Individual Tax Identification Number, which requires basic info to receive.  They can then use that number in lieu of a Social Security number.  From there, if an illegal immigrant wishes to do so there are numerous ways they can pay their taxes, probably the best way being to fill out Form 4852 instead of having a W2 and send it with their form 1040.  There is also no risk for illegal immigrants to file tax returns, there are strict federal privacy laws that revolve around an individuals tax info.  The IRS and the SSA cannot share that info with law enforcement agencies.

I've said it twice now as well and have provided sources for them, so if you choose to dispute please provide your own sources:

1. I am well aware that illegal immigrants DO NOT have access to Social Security or Medicare, I have never disputed that.
   
2. Illegal Immigrants DO receive the Child Tax Credit as well as emergency Medicaid (for emergency services).
   

I will leave you with this source from from the Treasury Department that is literally titled, Individuals Who Are Not Authorized to Work in the United States Were Paid $4.2 Billion in Refundable Credits."

Okay, wait.  So, if only those undocumented immigrants who are using an ITIN to file taxes with the IRS are eligible for the Child Tax Credit, then what’s the gripe?  If they’re paying their taxes why shouldn’t they receive that credit as any other working, tax-paying individual?  Simply because they’re here illegally?  That’s not really much of an argument. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding something here.

Yes, they should not be receiving the tax credit because they are not a US citizen.  I know that sounds cruel, but there's a couple of things that need to be understood as to why we do this.  First of all, even upon gaining citizenship, legal immigrants do not get access to benefits for years.  The principle behind this is the same that you see with state colleges providing different in-state and out-of-state tuition costs.  They provide a heavy discount to citizens of the state, because the thought process is that someone that lives in the state, receives a higher education in the state, will likely continue to reside in the state.  Having a higher educated citizen provides various benefits to the state.  Usually it's required that someone live in the state for a period of 1-2 years beforehand.  This is so someone can't move into the state for a month, pay their first rent check, and demand in state tuition; only to leave the state to return home.  It's also the same reason I can't become an illegal citizen of Canada, start paying taxes, and then demand free healthcare.

Second, is that there is a reason you are required to become a citizen before receiving these benefits and that is because we can't overload our social safety nets.  Imagine if we declared that illegal immigrants would receive all of the benefits (Social Security, Welfare, SNAP, etc) as long as they paid taxes.  We know that illegal immigrants make considerably less than the average American household.  It is not entirely without reason that we may begin to see a tax deficit.  Hence why they shouldn't be receiving the Child Tax Credit.  It was originally an oversight that they intended to fix in 2010, but screwed it up again.  And haven't been able to get rid of it since.

(June 24, 2018 at 10:39 am)FlyingNarwhal Wrote:

(June 24, 2018 at 5:43 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: That is not the conclusion, about half of illegal immigrants file tax returns but the numbers are skewed because the majority of illegal immigrants don't have access to jobs that pay them on the books and there is a risk for illegal immigrants to file tax returns, it creates a paper trail and could lead to deportation. Also the illegal immigrants that do file income tax do not have access to the tax credit, Social Security, and Medicare.

So the reason that illegal immigrants don't file tax returns is because they are breaking the law...again.  It is illegal to work "off the books."  Even I, as an American citizen, am not allowed to work off the books.  Besides the point that is not an excuse to not pay taxes.  Illegal immigrants pay taxes by filing for an Individual Tax Identification Number, which requires basic info to receive.  They can then use that number in lieu of a Social Security number.  From there, if an illegal immigrant wishes to do so there are numerous ways they can pay their taxes, probably the best way being to fill out Form 4852 instead of having a W2 and send it with their form 1040.  There is also no risk for illegal immigrants to file tax returns, there are strict federal privacy laws that revolve around an individuals tax info.  The IRS and the SSA cannot share that info with law enforcement agencies.

I've said it twice now as well and have provided sources for them, so if you choose to dispute please provide your own sources:

1. I am well aware that illegal immigrants DO NOT have access to Social Security or Medicare, I have never disputed that.
   
2. Illegal Immigrants DO receive the Child Tax Credit as well as emergency Medicaid (for emergency services).
   

I will leave you with this source from from the Treasury Department that is literally titled, Individuals Who Are Not Authorized to Work in the United States Were Paid $4.2 Billion in Refundable Credits."

1. I didn't say you weren't aware that illegal immigrants don't get social security, that wasn't the reason I brought it up. 
2. I never mentioned the Child Tax Credit, the tax credit I was referring to was the Income Tax Credit.

The point is we want them to pay taxes like citizens but we don't want them to have access to a lot of the benefits.

Also it doesn't matter if there is a law the prohibits the IRS from sharing data with law enforcement, it is still effecting the number of immigrants who file their taxes. They do not want a paper trail in the current climate, it's not like the law couldn't change with the stroke of a pen. 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/201...story.html

Theres simply no common ground for discussion with people who begin at the presumption that immigration is a burden.  

It;s tembling nativist shit, nothing more and nothing less.  The idea that the more some other has the less you will have.  That;s not how anything works and we know it isnt...but fear is rarely rational or grounded in fact.

(June 24, 2018 at 1:12 pm)FlyingNarwhal Wrote:

(June 24, 2018 at 11:06 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: Okay, wait.  So, if only those undocumented immigrants who are using an ITIN to file taxes with the IRS are eligible for the Child Tax Credit, then what’s the gripe?  If they’re paying their taxes why shouldn’t they receive that credit as any other working, tax-paying individual?  Simply because they’re here illegally?  That’s not really much of an argument. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding something here.

Yes, they should not be receiving the tax credit because they are not a US citizen.  I know that sounds cruel, but there's a couple of things that need to be understood as to why we do this.  First of all, even upon gaining citizenship, legal immigrants do not get access to benefits for years.  The principle behind this is the same that you see with state colleges providing different in-state and out-of-state tuition costs.  They provide a heavy discount to citizens of the state, because the thought process is that someone that lives in the state, receives a higher education in the state, will likely continue to reside in the state.  Having a higher educated citizen provides various benefits to the state.  Usually it's required that someone live in the state for a period of 1-2 years beforehand.  This is so someone can't move into the state for a month, pay their first rent check, and demand in state tuition; only to leave the state to return home.  It's also the same reason I can't become an illegal citizen of Canada, start paying taxes, and then demand free healthcare.

Second, is that there is a reason you are required to become a citizen before receiving these benefits and that is because we can't overload our social safety nets.  Imagine if we declared that illegal immigrants would receive all of the benefits (Social Security, Welfare, SNAP, etc) as long as they paid taxes.  We know that illegal immigrants make considerably less than the average American household.  It is not entirely without reason that we may begin to see a tax deficit.  Hence why they shouldn't be receiving the Child Tax Credit.  It was originally an oversight that they intended to fix in 2010, but screwed it up again.  And haven't been able to get rid of it since.

Sorry, but None of this follows.  If the reason, according to you, that “people” don’t want undocumented immigrants here is because they ‘don’t pay taxes’, but it can be shown with data that many of them do pay taxes, and that the only undocumented immigrants receiving the Child Tax Credit are the ones who are working and paying taxes, then you’re refuting your own argument when you continue to balk at this particular group. 

According to you, these “people” (you?) should only have a problem with those undocumented immigrants who don’t pay taxes, and consequently don’t receive many benefits.  But now you’re lumping them all together when you need support for your argument (‘whatever, they’re all illegal’) after you just spent two long posts teasing out data that distinguishes tax-paying versus non-tax paying undocumented immigrants. Maybe we could make more progress if you stated your position clearly. Where do you stand on undocumented immigrantion in the US? My position is that if the government provides them a means to pay into the system, and they do, then they deserve to have some access to the benefit pool they contributed to.  If they are contributing to the economy and to society, I don’t really care where they came from or whether they have a SSN.  Or, if they’re brown.

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(June 24, 2018 at 2:01 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Theres simply no common ground for discussion with people who begin at the presumption that immigration is a burden.

Theyre assuming their conclusion then, because I’ve yet to see anyone actually demonstrate that assumption to be true.