(July 2, 2018 at 7:42 pm)Kit Wrote:

(July 2, 2018 at 7:38 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: That I can understand. There is great hypocrisy within the church right now. The church has a tendency to persecute and then cry that they are being persecuted. We can go on and on about what's been committed in God's name in history. It isn't pretty. Not to mention the psychological manipulation. And these things must be spoken out against, from both within and from out.

This is basically how I view it:

People can read a J.K. Rowling novel and logically view Voldermort as the bad guy. The same people can read the bible and ill-logically view god as the good guy. Reading comprehension skills and logic become skewed all of a sudden, because "god".

Very true. And for many people it's not even 'because god', but 'because the Bible is INNERANT'.

So now, we have people trying to defend things that they normally wouldn't defend, like God commanding Saul to slaughter the Amalekites down to the babies, God requiring the daughter of the high priest to be burned if caught in prostitution, etc. because they are afraid of what will happen to them if they don't read that literally, even though Jesus in the New Testament is absolutely -nothing- like the deity described earlier. Honestly when we get to that point, we're worshiping a book, and not Jesus.

(July 2, 2018 at 7:51 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: Honestly when we get to that point, we're worshiping a book, and not Jesus.

Worshiping Jesus is worshiping a book. Both are fictional.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus' message is "awesome", but what he had to state was nothing new that humanity didn't already understand at the time. And without Jesus, there is no Christianity. Which is what makes the Christian need to keep Jesus alive through faith a major problem for human progression.

(July 2, 2018 at 7:57 pm)Kit Wrote:

(July 2, 2018 at 7:51 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: Honestly when we get to that point, we're worshiping a book, and not Jesus.

Worshiping Jesus is worshiping a book. Both are fictional.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus' message is "awesome", but what he had to state was nothing new that humanity didn't already understand at the time. And without Jesus, there is no Christianity. Which is what makes the Christian need to keep Jesus alive through faith a major problem for human progression.

I don't think having faith in Jesus and human progression need be mutually exclusive. It's the unfortunate truth that there is so much of the proverbial bath water still associated with faith in Jesus, and said bath water is, without any doubt, hindering human progression massively.

(July 2, 2018 at 8:01 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: I don't think having faith in Jesus and human progression need be mutually exclusive. It's the unfortunate truth that there is so much of the proverbial bath water still associated with faith in Jesus, and said bath water is, without any doubt, hindering human progression massively.

By all means, please expound on the meaning behind this "proverbial bath water". It seems to be word salad, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

(July 2, 2018 at 8:04 pm)Kit Wrote:

(July 2, 2018 at 8:01 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: I don't think having faith in Jesus and human progression need be mutually exclusive. It's the unfortunate truth that there is so much of the proverbial bath water still associated with faith in Jesus, and said bath water is, without any doubt, hindering human progression massively.

By all means, please expound on the meaning behind this "proverbial bath water". It seems to be word salad, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

Oh, where to start? The list could go on and on because so many people misuse Jesus to manipulate people.

Ah! Ok, so there is the American church and it's essential prostitution to the Republican Party. And then these so-called "Christian" politicians saying they "love God" and that their competitors do not, guilt tripping everyone to "vote for the candidate that God approves of". Right. Because -that- is exactly what Jesus was talking about when He taught about the Kingdom of Heaven... *eye roll* And then they have the nerve to collectively insult and persecute minorities together! Oh... the things Jesus would say to them! "You brood of vipers!" Oh I would LOVE to see those tables turn.

But yes. See that's some nasty bath water right there. And the sad thing is it is so remotely far from anything Jesus taught, yet people just can't see it.

(July 2, 2018 at 6:36 pm)JairCrawford Wrote:

(July 2, 2018 at 6:28 pm)Minimalist Wrote: What is the bigger leap? The original tale had no nativity story...neither does the last, BTW...but the two fanfics do and they disagree with each other extensively. Which was it? The one from 4-6 BC where Herod the great is alive or the one from 6 AD where Quirinius is presiding over an absurd world wide census that never happened? These are your problems. I am convinced that these xtian writers were simply making shit up for their respective groups.

And as far as Josephus is concerned not a single writer not xtian or pagan ever refers to that forgery prior to the 4th century... Including Origen who specifically cites book 18 of Antiquities and says that Josephus does not know Christ.

The TF has been resurrected (pun intended) for the same reason it was originally forged. Jesus freaks are embarrassed that their boy made no mark on history.

To answer that, both accounts would have to be looked at for their similarities and differences. If a common kernel can be found to be plausible, then the entire account can't be asserted to be factually fabricated with total certainty.

Keep in mind, it was custom for the contemporary Jews during the time of Jesus to memorize liturgy orally and recite it. It is plausible that this same thing applied to the early forms of what became parts of the gospels, thus a source for passing down the nativity account among other things.

What did Origen mean by that? Is he implying that Josephus didn't know who Jesus was at all? Or that he didn't -know- Him? As in, Josephus wasn't a Christian (which makes sense because we know Josephus was Jewish)? I'm genuinely asking as I need to do more reading on the argument from silence regarding the Testimonium.

I'll have to look up Contra Celsus for you a little later.

Its not an argument from silence. It is a forgery.

(July 2, 2018 at 8:01 pm)JairCrawford Wrote:

(July 2, 2018 at 7:57 pm)Kit Wrote: Worshiping Jesus is worshiping a book. Both are fictional.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus' message is "awesome", but what he had to state was nothing new that humanity didn't already understand at the time. And without Jesus, there is no Christianity. Which is what makes the Christian need to keep Jesus alive through faith a major problem for human progression.

I don't think having faith in Jesus and human progression need be mutually exclusive. It's the unfortunate truth that there is so much of the proverbial bath water still associated with faith in Jesus, and said bath water is, without any doubt, hindering human progression massively.

Have you read the Gospel of Peter? Acts of Peter? Acts of Pilate?

I have read quotations from the Gospel of Peter, but not the whole work in it's entirety. That is the one with the visible cross ascending from the grave into Heaven, no? Or am I thinking of something else?

The other two I have not read at all yet, but I have looked at the Gospel of Thomas. It's written like a sayings collection, which it could be.

I love the gospel of peter with the giant walking, talking, cross. So fucking stupid even early xhristards wouldn't put it in their shitty bible!

(July 2, 2018 at 3:17 pm)JairCrawford Wrote:

(July 2, 2018 at 3:08 pm)Kit Wrote: This does not, however, lead me to the conclusion that Harry Potter doesn't use a book to speak to me.

If you can understand the silliness and irrationality of the above, you can apply the same logic to god and the bible.

Point taken.

I get where you are coming from in that anyone can make blind assertions about any book.

But at the end of the day, we have both investigated. I have made my investigations of scripture and so have you. Your investigations and questioning led you to reject it outright, while mine changed how I read it and the contexts behind it. Two different perspectives.

And I think we can acknowledge, regardless of our differences of interpretation, that the motivations behind the writing of the Bible and Harry Potter were totally different.

Still, I can see your argument. I can see where you're coming from.

If you have investigated the Bible then you should know what the real Ten Commandments are and that every Bible story illustrates one or more of them.  You should also know that all of the Bible stories teach complete obedience and loyalty to the Boss.  Everything else is simply BS filler.  The Bible is simply a military code of conduct for the masses.