Bear in mind, while we both agree there is a clear theological message there, we part ways beyond that point to our conclusions. In other words I do not take that as proof of fabrication of a story, but rather a very specific lesson and example in something I believe to have actually taken place that I should take heed of in my own faith as such situations might apply today.

(July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.

Good thing you;re here, lol!

We don;t have to go on reading to see the importance of the stories.  Firstly, it echoes earlier narratives ( exodus 16, 2 kings, psalm 132).....many pages of ink could be spilled and have been spilled on this one, but it reminds us that god is not finite.  He can provide in abundance, in excess of our expectations or resources.  Superficially, food...but perhaps more deeply n overabundance of spiritual sustenance.  The crowds gathered weren;t even believers.  They were there for healings, not to worship god.  

I do think it;s amusing, in the narrative (pursuant to your comment about faith above) that all four narratives show that the disciples..for some reason...doubted the miracle man even though they;d seen him perform mirales before and were..in effect, at an all day miracle road show even in the story.  The chorus stops and says "but how?".

The numbers..if you;re referring to 5k..might be incidental (it;s just alot of people...a miraculous number!).  It wouldn;t have been a full accounting even if it were true..women and children weren;t counted..but the gospel writer most empathetic to women and children generally does see fit to include their mention..at least.  John goes so far as to have the bread offered by a little boy.  More on that in a minute.

The number of broken pieces in the basket, reported by all four, however, has not been lost to us.  Each narrative has the disciples gathering 12 baskets full of broken pieces.  Alluding to the notion that the apostles will gather the twelve broken tribes.  Speaking of the apostles, jesus doesn;t distribute this food himself, or wiggle his nose and suddenly everyone has food or doesn;t need it.  He hands it to them to distribute.  What they have comes from god, and they can only give what they get.  

Now back to those details...both how they agree and how they differ.  I arranged them chronologically.  Mark comes first, then mathew, then luke, then john.  Mathew and lukle were largely based on mark..john does his own thing..and it shows.  Mark and matthew both say that there were already crows gathered when jesus retired.  Luke has him welcoming people (luke was a softy).  John has godman going right up the motherfucking mountain, lol!

Then, ofc, John has a bit extra that conforms to his unique style.  A pronouncement from the people that he is definitely the messiah..and how they were all going to make him king..by force.  

So...regarding the theological oimportance of the bits above...are the minor disparities between accounts all that important?  Is this a vehicle to recount the mundane details..or the message of god?  Can we notice how each author alters the narrative thrust in order to satisfy what we have determined to be their unique proclivities?

My conclusion™ btw..is the conclusion of christian scholarship. That this is a proficient and well polished parable. I;m sure we don;t disagree there. You may believe its twoo, twoo, twoo like our unfortunate friend RR, but that;s irrelevant to me.

(July 12, 2018 at 4:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote: ..........................................  

Apparently, I have the gift of prophecy. 

Quote:You have a compelling need to exclaim "its twoo, it;s twoo, it;s twoo" in every possible variation of the phrase....and that means that you'll never actually get around to discussing the mythicist position. That the character of christ found in the NT was constructed specifically as a vehicle for theology.

I wouldn't consider that highly theological (at least not in the way I think you are using it).  But it could be considered a part of systematic theology in the study of the text, and tying common things together.

Because there is some significance to the event doesn't mean that it is a myth (not even close).   The signing of the declaration of the independence had a lot of significance. Do you think that act is a myth?
I find that it is often the significant things that get recorded, although the gospels also contain a lot of little details that may not have a large overall importance.   I had posted a while ago, about a book on un-designed coincidences.  Where insignificant things or things that left a question in one account where explained or made more sense when combined with another.

Are you going to answer the question of "how you know that", or is this just going to be all chest thumping and you proclaiming what you imagine I'll say;   to dodge the question.

I am answering the question..in detail.  Would you like to participate now?  Do you think you can stuff your cold case shit long enough to appreciate the work of the authors of your own precious stories, lol?

(July 12, 2018 at 5:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.

Good thing you;re here, lol!

We don;t have to go on reading to see the importance of the stories.  Firstly, it echoes earlier narratives ( exodus 16, 2 kings, psalm 132).....many pages of ink could be spilled and have been spilled on this one, but it reminds us that god is not finite.  He can provide in abundance, in excess of our expectations or resources.  Superficially, food...but perhaps more deeply n overabundance of spiritual sustenance.  The crowds gathered weren;t even believers.  They were there for healings, not to worship god.  

I do think it;s amusing, in the narrative (pursuant to your comment about faith above) that all four narratives show that the disciples..for some reason...doubted the miracle man even though they;d seen him perform mirales before and were..in effect, at an all day miracle road show even in the story.  The chorus stops and says "but how?".

The numbers..if you;re referring to 5k..might be incidental (it;s just alot of people...a miraculous number!).  It wouldn;t have been a full accounting even if it were true..women and children weren;t counted..but the gospel writer most empathetic to women and children generally does see fit to include their mention..at least.  John goes so far as to have the bread offered by a little boy.  More on that in a minute.

The number of broken pieces in the basket, reported by all four, however, has not been lost to us.  Each narrative has the disciples gathering 12 baskets full of broken pieces.  Alluding to the notion that the apostles will gather the twelve broken tribes.  Speaking of the apostles, jesus doesn;t distribute this food himself, or wiggle his nose and suddenly everyone has food or doesn;t need it.  He hands it to them to distribute.  What they have comes from god, and they can only give what they get.  

Now back to those details...both how they agree and how they differ.  I arranged them chronologically.  Mark comes first, then mathew, then luke, then john.  Mathew and lukle were largely based on mark..john does his own thing..and it shows.  Mark and matthew both say that there were already crows gathered when jesus retired.  Luke has him welcoming people (luke was a softy).  John has godman going right up the motherfucking mountain, lol!

Then, ofc, John has a bit extra that conforms to his unique style.  A pronouncement from the people that he is definitely the messiah..and how they were all going to make him king..by force.  

So...regarding the theological oimportance of the bits above...are the minor disparities between accounts all that important?  Is this a vehicle to recount the mundane details..or the message of god?  Can we notice how each author alters the central character in order to satisfy what we have determined to be their unique proclivities?

My conclusion™ btw..is the conclusion of christian scholarship. That this is a proficient and well polished parable. I;m sure we don;t disagree there. You may believe its twoo, twoo, twoo like our unfortunate friend RR, but that;s irrelevant to me.

We can totally notice this, and that's ok. I think of it like a theological equivalent to 'poetic liscence'. Four different theological imprints from four memories (passed down from the disciples) of the same events. That is how I see it at least.

(July 12, 2018 at 5:15 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I am answering the question..in detail.  Would you like to participate now?  Do you think you can stuff your cold case shit long enough to appreciate the work of the authors of your own precious stories, lol?

He will cling to his Cop till the end because it's all he's got and what he's got is unimpressive to say the least