So that is what I find truly interesting. This is partially because I find the question of the ethics of killing uninteresting. The death of an organism is never the goal, it is simply incidental and an often unfortunate side effect.

I think your answer is a good one. I don’t think that an infant is a person in the same way a kindergartner is. However I am trying to sort out if a 5 year old is a person in the same way a 20 year old is. Is there a threshold? I don’t know.

My being pro-choice has nothing to do with personhood, despite the fetus not being a person via the definition.

Imagine someone informing me that I cannot masturbate because I would be killing potential persons.

I am allowed to do what I want with my body, as should any woman be allowed the same courtesy.

Pro-life logic: All humans are potentially dead, therefore there's no difference between being alive and being dead. So killing people is fine.

(August 8, 2018 at 8:56 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Something that can pass a driver's test clearly is.

Caveat: I am not claiming that anything can pass a driving test is a person, or that not being able to pass a driving test makes someone less of a person. It's just an example.

(August 1, 2018 at 9:55 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I had heard a story recently on the BreakPoint podcast, that is somewhat related. 

The story was about a  couple who had twins born prematurely in Oregon.  This couple where of a Pentacostal group, which does not believe in going to the doctor.  They also reported, that Oregon laws on abortion, allow for the baby to be aborted up until the time of birth.  These twins where born prematurely; I believe they said that they where not quite 4 pounds.  With the premature birth, the babies required medical attention, and because of the parents beliefs, they did not get it, and one of the babies died within about 2 hours after birth.  

The state is bringing the parents up on charges of neglect.  This was a part of the story, with which the commentators at break point agreed with. It concerns the rights of the parents to raise the child as they see fit, with the right of the child to life.  That between the two, the childs right to life, takes precedence.  I go back and forth on this issue , but I do think there is a point where neglect is the reason for the loss, and the rights of the child, overrule the rights of the parents.

However the other part of this story, is that this couple could have went to a doctor just  2 hours prior, and legally killed these same babies (under Oregon law).  They pointed to the inconsistency of the laws in Oregon, and what was essentially the same human being.

A few points:

1)  Oregon law does not restrict abortion.  The choice is totally up to the pregnant woman.

2)  Under both the Oregon State Constitution and the US Constitution, once a fetus is born he/she becomes a "person" and (if born in the US or if born elsewhere with a US citizen mother), the born individual also immediately becomes a "citizen".  Under both Constitutions, a "person" and a "citizen" have certain rights which they do not have before they are born.  One of those rights is the right to not have their life taken without due process of law.

3)  Once the twins were born, premature or not, each became a "person" and a citizen".  The parents' subsequent failure to provide medical attention robbed one of the children of his/her life without due process of law.  The State of Oregon has several laws which punish such behavior, and it doesn't matter if the subjective beliefs of the parents conflict with that.  Such beliefs are subservient to the welfare of the born child.

4)  The parents were criminally charged with neglect and convicted.  Easy Peasy...at least here in Oregon.

5)  Your "just 2 hours prior" is an emotional plea and is not relevant.

(August 6, 2018 at 1:33 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(August 4, 2018 at 11:49 am)Mermaid Wrote: The FACTS are that my uterus is my business and my business only.

Let's see it live without the mother.

And this  "precious human being" shit makes me want to puke when you scumbags lock them up after ripping them away from their parents.



There is "full of shit," Chad and then there is "stunningly full of shit" which is what you are.

Roads trying the tactic of saying that a woman protecting her autonomy by kicking out another entity using her  bodily functions without her permission  is equal to child neglect .Too bad it isn't .

---

(August 11, 2018 at 9:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(August 6, 2018 at 1:33 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

Let's see it live without the mother.

And this  "precious human being" shit makes me want to puke when you scumbags lock them up after ripping them away from their parents.



There is "full of shit," Chad and then there is "stunningly full of shit" which is what you are.

Herr Durr but Obama ......

Wonder if Beta Fail will show up and go on about your non racist use of the word house $igge$$%

(August 11, 2018 at 9:24 pm)sdelsolray Wrote:

---

(August 1, 2018 at 9:55 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I had heard a story recently on the BreakPoint podcast, that is somewhat related. 

The story was about a  couple who had twins born prematurely in Oregon.  This couple where of a Pentacostal group, which does not believe in going to the doctor.  They also reported, that Oregon laws on abortion, allow for the baby to be aborted up until the time of birth.  These twins where born prematurely; I believe they said that they where not quite 4 pounds.  With the premature birth, the babies required medical attention, and because of the parents beliefs, they did not get it, and one of the babies died within about 2 hours after birth.  

The state is bringing the parents up on charges of neglect.  This was a part of the story, with which the commentators at break point agreed with. It concerns the rights of the parents to raise the child as they see fit, with the right of the child to life.  That between the two, the childs right to life, takes precedence.  I go back and forth on this issue , but I do think there is a point where neglect is the reason for the loss, and the rights of the child, overrule the rights of the parents.

However the other part of this story, is that this couple could have went to a doctor just  2 hours prior, and legally killed these same babies (under Oregon law).  They pointed to the inconsistency of the laws in Oregon, and what was essentially the same human being.

A few points:

1)  Oregon law does not restrict abortion.  The choice is totally up to the pregnant woman.

2)  Under both the Oregon State Constitution and the US Constitution, once a fetus is born he/she becomes a "person" and (if born in the US or if born elsewhere with a US citizen mother), the born individual also immediately becomes a "citizen".  Under both Constitutions, a "person" and a "citizen" have certain rights which they do not have before they are born.  One of those rights is the right to not have their life taken without due process of law.

3)  Once the twins were born, premature or not, each became a "person" and a citizen".  The parents' subsequent failure to provide medical attention robbed one of the children of his/her life without due process of law.  The State of Oregon has several laws which punish such behavior, and it doesn't matter if the subjective beliefs of the parents conflict with that.  Such beliefs are subservient to the welfare of the born child.

4)  The parents were criminally charged with neglect and convicted.  Easy Peasy...at least here in Oregon.

---

5)  Your "just 2 hours prior" is an emotional plea and is not relevant.

Perhaps.

Their cannot be much other difference with the baby. But thanks for verifying Oregon law.

Edit: fixed tags and formatting.

(August 11, 2018 at 9:53 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Roads trying the tactic of saying that a woman protecting her autonomy by kicking out another entity using her  bodily functions without her permission  is equal to child neglect .Too bad it isn't .

---

(August 11, 2018 at 9:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Let's see it live without the mother.

And this  "precious human being" shit makes me want to puke when you scumbags lock them up after ripping them away from their parents.



There is "full of shit," Chad and then there is "stunningly full of shit" which is what you are.

Herr Durr but Obama ......

Wonder if Beta Fail will show up and go on about your non racist use of the word house $igge$$%

Like I give a shit what that motherfucker thinks.

(August 8, 2018 at 11:30 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Pro-life logic: All humans are potentially dead, therefore there's no difference between being alive and being dead. So killing people is fine.

Uh, what?