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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:18 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:04 am)SteveII Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:18 am)polymath257 Wrote: Again, I don't see the logic. Why would we not be able to experience happiness even if disembodied? Why would it be excluded simply because we are removed from the 'pure' version?
Why would we not be able to experience intellectual stimulation? be able to think deeply about various concepts?
If hell is is simply being separated from God, I fail to see the negative side. If it is torture, that simply makes the creator evil. Either way, 'furthest from Him is best'.
What?!
Forget the "pure version". If you don't have a body, you do not have inputs. You don't have outputs. You will not experience anything but contemplation. How in the world could you experience happiness!? One wonders how heaven is supposed to work for all the good boys and girls, in that case.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:18 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:15 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I always assume that people write and say what they think and believe. I don't have to be told. Adding those particular qualifiers do not add anything to the root claim. If I say "I believe that motorcycles are dangerous." means no more and no less than when I say "motorcycles are dangerous."
I suppose one could nit-pick and say that the first sentence is self-referencial whereas the second has an external reference. It seems as if you are reading "dishonesty" into the statements made by Christians that you would not attribute to statements made during casual conversations.
As an interesting experiment, one I've done myself, try to go for a whole week without saying "I think..." before you say what you think. I came away with a greater awareness of how much time I spend talking about myself rather than listening to those of others..
Indeed. I stopped using I think or even I believe. Leaving those qualifiers out gets my point across in a way that is harder to argue against.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:21 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:05 am)Kit Wrote: The existence of the soul is as much a delusion as the existence of god.
What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?
<insert profound quote here>
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:22 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:18 am)Khemikal Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 11:04 am)SteveII Wrote: What?!
Forget the "pure version". If you don't have a body, you do not have inputs. You don't have outputs. You will not experience anything but contemplation. How in the world could you experience happiness!? One wonders how heaven is supposed to work for all the good boys and girls, in that case. I don't believe it could good thing too as it could only be pure torture .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:22 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?
Because you are wrong and unwilling to accept it. Therefore, you're preferring the delusion over the reality.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:23 am
Quote:What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?
You could be both
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:35 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 11:40 am by Angrboda.)
(August 30, 2018 at 11:15 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:42 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: Now liberally insert 'allegedly' or 'I speculate' or 'I read in a book' into your post, and you'll immediately clear the air of that lingering odor of dishonest assertion that always accompanies Christian talk of the afterlife.
I always assume that people write and say what they think and believe. I don't have to be told. Adding those particular qualifiers do not add anything to the root claim. If I say "I believe that motorcycles are dangerous." means no more and no less than when I say "motorcycles are dangerous."
I suppose one could nit-pick and say that the first sentence is self-referencial whereas the second has an external reference. It seems as if you are reading "dishonesty" into the statements made by Christians that you would not attribute to statements made during casual conversations.
As an interesting experiment, one I've done myself, try to go for a whole week without saying "I think..." before you say what you think. I came away with a greater awareness of how much time I spend talking about myself rather than listening to those of others..
I think Crossless was making a point about the speculative nature of all this. That you and CL chose to take it literally I think simply means that you were missing the point.
The radical multiplicity of ideas about this stuff, even within a faith like Catholicism paints a very dark picture of its overall credibility. I would be less skeptical if it weren't the case that Christianity is a paint by numbers exercise wherein the participants are always coloring outside the lines. It seems rather obvious that the lot of you are just making this shit up, ad hoc, and that it isn't based upon anything but your imagination.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:44 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 11:47 am by polymath257.)
(August 30, 2018 at 9:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 29, 2018 at 2:33 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Just because you are separating from 'pure love', why would that mean you are separated from love in all cases? Why would it imply you are separated from all beauty and joy? All it seems to mean is that you are separated from the 'pure' versions of these. But that is the case in life anyway, right?
Because God is literally love and goodness itself. Love does not exist apart from Him, the same way rain does not exist apart from water. Because rain literally is water.
As humans, we were made for love because we were created by Him, who is love. Meaning that is ultimately how we will find fulfillment - through love. Without it, we cannot be joyful, by nature.
In this life, we can find distractions. Like money, sex, activities, etc. A person who is greedy and has pushed everyone away and has 0 love in their lives but still has a lot of material things and a lot of bodily pleasures, isn't a truly happy and fulfilled person. But since they still have those distractions, they may not always feel completely empty.
However, when we die, we don't bring money with us. We don't bring our bodies with us. Meaning all that is left is our souls. There are no material possessions or bodily pleasures. So if you reject God (ie reject love), there is nothing to distract you from your lack of love. And since love is integral to our sense of fulfillement and joy, a person who rejects love in the next life cannot be happy.
Love is an emotion. It is mediated in the brain. It isn't some universal force.
That's not to say I think it meaningless or bad--quite the contrary! But to identify it with a supernatural entity just seems, well, unusual. To think an emotion is the same as a creator of the universe is perverse.
God is clearly *not* the same as love. When I love my wife, I don't have to have a belief in a deity, even though I believe that I have that emotion.
(August 30, 2018 at 9:58 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:18 am)polymath257 Wrote: Again, I don't see the logic. Why would we not be able to experience happiness even if disembodied? Why would it be excluded simply because we are removed from the 'pure' version?
Why would we not be able to experience intellectual stimulation? be able to think deeply about various concepts?
If hell is is simply being separated from God, I fail to see the negative side. If it is torture, that simply makes the creator evil. Either way, 'furthest from Him is best'.
No, not from the "pure" version. There is only one version. So, then, I experience 'God' whenever I see my wife? Really? Either I do not love my wife OR there is more than one 'version' OR you are simply wrong. And I know I love my wife.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:48 am
(August 30, 2018 at 11:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 11:05 am)Kit Wrote: The existence of the soul is as much a delusion as the existence of god.
What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?
Nope! Religious people are mentally ill. And atheists aren't. Like, ever. 😋
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 11:51 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 11:53 am by polymath257.)
(August 30, 2018 at 11:04 am)SteveII Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 9:18 am)polymath257 Wrote: Again, I don't see the logic. Why would we not be able to experience happiness even if disembodied? Why would it be excluded simply because we are removed from the 'pure' version?
Why would we not be able to experience intellectual stimulation? be able to think deeply about various concepts?
If hell is is simply being separated from God, I fail to see the negative side. If it is torture, that simply makes the creator evil. Either way, 'furthest from Him is best'.
What?!
Forget the "pure version". If you don't have a body, you do not have inputs. You don't have outputs. You will not experience anything but contemplation. How in the world could you experience happiness!? That would be torture after like a day or two--not to mention years. That is to say nothing about whatever effect the total removal of God's presence would have on your soul--which you would not have experienced to that point--so who knows what that would be like.
How is not experiencing anything but contemplation a torture? Happiness is an *emotion*. if I can experience pain and suffering (without inputs, mind you), i clearly would have the ability to experience emotions.
Why would 'total removal' from God's presence be any different than the life I have right now? I see no evidence of this deity. I see no reason to believe in this deity. And yet I am perfectly happy without this deity being involved in my life.
(August 30, 2018 at 11:21 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 11:05 am)Kit Wrote: The existence of the soul is as much a delusion as the existence of god.
What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?
There may well be religious notions that are not delusional, but they are few and far between and I can't think of one off the top of my head.
Being wrong and persisting in belief in spite of the error being pointed out is delusion. So, someone that has a religious belief that is able to learn and thereby reject it would simply be wrong. But that is rare.
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