Trump of course. MAGA 2: The End is Near.

For all the hubbub over warren..the economically anxious don't seem to be bothered by shameless wasp paddywhackery. 

I mean..aren't we worried that these guys might approach politics the same way?  Shouldn't they all get genetically tested to confirm or deny their family lore before we can trust in their political acumen?

Hell, I bet some of them boys aint even white. I think that it'd be a gas if they all got sequenced, and found out that their "cherokee" heritage was..as is more accurately and commonly the case in the stories....a pleasant euphemism for something else entirely, something much..much..darker.

(September 11, 2018 at 10:57 am)Khemikal Wrote: The Globe did a big writeup about this, not but 10 days ago.

Quote:The Globe examined hundreds of documents, many of them never before available, and reached out to all 52 of the law professors who are still living and were eligible to be in that Pound Hall room at Harvard Law School. Some are Warren’s allies. Others are not. Thirty-one agreed to talk to the Globe — including the law professor who was, at the time, in charge of recruiting minority faculty. 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/...story.html

It was a deep enough dive to get around to the issue of why warren become so invested in the stories of her heritage, and why she's really never going to give a shit about what the howler monkeys have to say on the subject.

Quote:Warren said she had always identified closely with her mother’s side of the family: a sprawling and rowdy group with scant resources who looked after one another, and who, according to family lore, have Cherokee and Delaware blood.

When her grandmother died in 1969, Warren’s mother and three aunts led the family and further impressed on her their proud Cherokee connection.

Then in the late 1980s, around the time that Warren began identifying professionally as Native American, she began losing them, too. Her aunt Mae Reed Masterson died in October 1989. Her aunt Alice Ann Reed Carnes died in August 1990. That left her mother and her aunt Bess Veneck, (aka Aunt Bee), who lived with Warren and helped her raise her children.

Warren’s “Aunt Bee” — Bess Veneck — moved in with the Warren family and helped raise her children. She’s pictured here on Easter 1981 with Amelia Warren, 9, and Alex Warren, 4.
Warren campaign

“The two women in my life who have always been my guides through the world began to focus even more on the past,” Warren explained.

Yeah, but if it's not true, wouldn't you want to know? I mean what about self examination and the value of truth? Two things I want in a leader. I mean I'd still probably vote for Warren if she's the nominee, but any Atheist who it doesn't at least give a little pause to, should be concerned about that way of thinking. 

You can't just say 'I'm American Indian, I don't need to provide proof because I like being that way." So much so that she checked herself as Native American on college boxes. I mean, I'd at least want to know if the stories I was being told as a kid true. That's the thinking that lead me to being an Atheist in the first place.

What is really the harm to Warren if it's not true? If your self identity is so tied up in being 1/8th native American, I think that just comes out as super goofy. Trump will hammer her on this over and over and over again. All the mid-western working class white votes he stole from Hillary will see her as a goofy northeastnerer who is saying that it's wrong to be white, even if you are a blond haired blue eyed lady who is so obviously white.

Plus if you said that sexism is a contributing factor for Hillary losing, it didn't magically go away. I think she's probably one of the only candidates Trump would have a chance at beating.

(September 11, 2018 at 12:48 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Yeah, but if it's not true, wouldn't you want to know? I mean what about self examination and the value of truth? Two things I want in a leader. I mean I'd still probably vote for Warren if she's the nominee, but any Atheist who it doesn't at least give a little pause to, should be concerned about that way of thinking. 

Meh, I can't say I'm bothered much by people who embrace their families foundational myths and legends.  I actually happen to know that I'm a mutt..for example..but I embrace the white irish persona my family worked to craft and maintain. Understanding the exact spread of my genetics is unimportant to me..and it seems unimportant to her as well.

Quote:You can't just say 'I'm American Indian, I don't need to provide proof because I like being that way." So much so that she checked herself as Native American on college boxes. I mean, I'd at least want to know if the stories I was being told as a kid true. That's the thinking that lead me to being an Atheist in the first place.

I check all sorts of shit on those boxes for the straight up lulz...but reflexively hit cuacasian more often than not, just like I was taught to do.  I'm not sure why it's a problem..or why it would have vast and far reaching implications for her (or anyone else's) later career in politics.  

Quote:What is really the harm to Warren if it's not true? If your self identity is so tied up in being 1/8th native American, I think that just comes out as super goofy. Trump will hammer her on this over and over and over again. All the mid-western working class white votes he stole from Hillary will see her as a goofy northeastnerer who is saying that it's wrong to be white, even if you are a blond haired blue eyed lady who is so obviously white.

Plus if you said that sexism is a contributing factor for Hillary losing, it didn't magically go away. I think she's probably one of the only candidates Trump would have a chance at beating.

Trump will hammer her over and over on that even if she were 1/8th cherokee - some of his more economically anxious base would even find that prospect -worse- than her being a white girl.  The truth of the matter is wholly unimportant to him and his followers..as the narrative they've concocted demonstrates time and time again.  She's not a northeasterner either...she's from Oklahoma City Oklahoma...but like you said....won't stop them from seeing her that way. The joke is funny because they're racist pricks who think affirmative action is victimizing them...not because she is or isn't native american, because she is or isn't eastern a goofy northeasterner, because she is or isn't saying that being white is wrong, or because she has or hasn't already addressed the issue at length and provided the appropriate mea culpa to the only people that would matter in this context....and it aint the trumpsters.

If anyone actually cares about truth, then if they're voting Donald "Tells a million lies a minue" Trump, they're lying about caring about the truth.

(September 11, 2018 at 1:54 pm)Divinity Wrote: If anyone actually cares about truth, then if they're voting Donald "Tells a million lies a minue" Trump, they're lying about caring about the truth.

Of course. But that doesn't mean that you just get to magically not care about whether or not other people are truthful or self examining.

I won't be voting for warren, but..to me..it seems pointless to blow up one of trumps racist jokes into some deeply troubling issue about warren. Particularly in light of how the whole thing was actually handled.

Just checking her out on on the issues..she looks like a legit progressive.

(September 11, 2018 at 1:18 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(September 11, 2018 at 12:48 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Yeah, but if it's not true, wouldn't you want to know? I mean what about self examination and the value of truth? Two things I want in a leader. I mean I'd still probably vote for Warren if she's the nominee, but any Atheist who it doesn't at least give a little pause to, should be concerned about that way of thinking. 

Meh, I can't say I'm bothered much by people who embrace their families foundational myths and legends.  I actually happen to know that I'm a mutt..for example..but I embrace the white irish persona my family worked to craft and maintain. Understanding the exact spread of my genetics is unimportant to me..and it seems unimportant to her as well.

Quote:You can't just say 'I'm American Indian, I don't need to provide proof because I like being that way." So much so that she checked herself as Native American on college boxes. I mean, I'd at least want to know if the stories I was being told as a kid true. That's the thinking that lead me to being an Atheist in the first place.

I check all sorts of shit on those boxes for the straight up lulz...but reflexively hit cuacasian more often than not, just like I was taught to do.  I'm not sure why it's a problem..or why it would have vast and far reaching implications for her (or anyone else's) later career in politics.  

Quote:What is really the harm to Warren if it's not true? If your self identity is so tied up in being 1/8th native American, I think that just comes out as super goofy. Trump will hammer her on this over and over and over again. All the mid-western working class white votes he stole from Hillary will see her as a goofy northeastnerer who is saying that it's wrong to be white, even if you are a blond haired blue eyed lady who is so obviously white.

Plus if you said that sexism is a contributing factor for Hillary losing, it didn't magically go away. I think she's probably one of the only candidates Trump would have a chance at beating.

Trump will hammer her over and over on that even if she were 1/8th cherokee - some of his more economically anxious base would even find that prospect -worse- than her being a white girl.  The truth of the matter is wholly unimportant to him and his followers..as the narrative they've concocted demonstrates time and time again.  She's not a northeasterner either...she's from Oklahoma City Oklahoma...but like you said....won't stop them from seeing her that way.  The joke is funny because they're racist pricks who think affirmative action is victimizing them...not because she is or isn't native american, because she is or isn't eastern a goofy northeasterner, because she is or isn't saying that being white is wrong, or because she has or hasn't already addressed the issue at length and provided the appropriate mea culpa to the only people that would matter in this context....and it aint the trumpsters.

I doubt those white working class people in the midwest are 'racist pricks' just because they voted for Trump. You have to remember that those are the votes that voted for Obama and not for Hillary. The hardcore Trumpers, you are right, but the votes that the next democratic nominee needs to win back are those midwest working class. That's basically the votes that elected Trump, that Obama had won before. So I doubt that they are racist and I'm sure that calling them racist is not a winning strategy. We'll see what Warren does if she's the nominee. Other than that I agree with everything you wrote and I think it's within Warrens power to turn this into a non-issue, although she certainly won't by saying that Trump is being racist towards her, which isn't possible because she is white.

I think the best strategy would just to be honest, say "I didn't gain any advantage from saying I'm native american and nobody says that I did. I'm white and maybe cherokee or maybe not. It doesn't really matter."

I think that would probably be the best. That's not what she said though. She said that she prefers to believe her family over finding out the truth. We would verbally crucify a Theist on here for saying something like that. The problem with it is so obvious. It is just an error in thinking, in my opinion. The problem is that for some reason or another, it does matter to Elizabeth Warren that she's 1/8th Cherokee. So much so that she doesn't want to learn the truth. Or possibly she has learned that she's just a white lady already, and is hiding that. Could be possible. I've met lots of white people who identify with being a tiny bit Native and I don't think I've managed to not roll my eyes at a single one.

I think it's within Elizabeth Warren's power to nullify this as an issue, but only if she doesn't care if it's true or not. We'll see. I doubt she'll be the nominee anyway.

Oh a side note, my father always told me we were part American Indian, which turned out not to be true. I didn't feel my identity crumble away around me. It really shouldn't change anything or even be an issue at all.

I think any examination of the 2016 election map will show that it was rural voters who elected Trump. How that intersects with the middle class in the Midwest is unclear. What's your support for the claim?

(September 11, 2018 at 2:33 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I doubt those white working class people in the midwest are 'racist pricks' just because they voted for Trump.

So do I, they were racist pricks long before he came along to validate them, lol.

Quote:I think the best strategy would just to be honest, say "I didn't gain any advantage from saying I'm native american and nobody says that I did. I'm white and maybe cherokee or maybe not. It doesn't really matter."

That's what she did.  Even adding a bit about regretting that she was unaware, at least at the time, of the difference between heritage and citizenship.

What are facts, right?

Quote:I think that would probably be the best. That's not what she said though. She said that she prefers to believe her family over finding out the truth. We would verbally crucify a Theist on here for saying something like that. The problem with it is so obvious. It is just an error in thinking, in my opinion. The problem is that for some reason or another, it does matter to Elizabeth Warren that she's 1/8th Cherokee. So much so that she doesn't want to learn the truth. Or possibly she has learned that she's just a white lady already, and is hiding that. Could be possible. I've met lots of white people who identify with being a tiny bit Native and I don't think I've managed to not roll my eyes at a single one.

Meh, I've long opined on my slightly different take on that.  I respect people who plainly and simply lay out the case for their beliefs with frank self awareness..even if it's as simple as they want to believe it.  It's not actually surprising to find that a girl from oklahoma embraces these stories, even less so that her family tells them.

Quote:I think it's within Elizabeth Warren's power to nullify this as an issue, but only if she doesn't care if it's true or not. We'll see. I doubt she'll be the nominee anyway.

The issue isn't her native american heritage or whatever stories her family might have told.  She's not in the drivers seat on this and it's silly to maintain that she is, imo.

Quote:Oh a side note, my father always told me we were part American Indian, which turned out not to be true. I didn't feel my identity crumble away around me. It really shouldn't change anything or even be an issue at all.

My family has always tried to stay clear of that business..lest everyone in our little corner of america find out we wouldn't qualify for citizenship in the ethnostate by the one drop rule.  

The whole cherokee princess bit is a running joke in the south.  The mostly likely bit of native ancestry in otherwise european peoples, comes from poor southern whites whose families have been here a very long time...with hispanic, african.....and cooperative native exterminating natives...in their heritage (incidentally these are people highly unlikely to get sequenced though the data we already have shows a concentration).  Oklahoma actually is a POI for that, fwiw.  If it was going to be true anywhere, that's one of the places it would be.  But...hey, why would it matter? She may or may not be one of the up to 12% of white americans in a defined region with some native heritage who are, regardless..completely ineligible for tribal citizenship and are receiving no benefits on the basis of what may or may not be in their genes...who go about their day to day lives doing all sorts of jobs no one seems to think they ought to go and get 23andme'd for.