(October 12, 2018 at 2:10 pm)PRJA93 Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 12:59 pm)Aliza Wrote: I don't think theists need evidence to believe in G-d. For whatever it's worth, I don't claim to have any evidence; I simply think it makes more sense that there is a G-d. I don't feel the need to convince other people to adopt my position because that serves no purpose. I can state my position, and I can try to explain for the sake of being understood, but I don't need evidence for myself and I feel no compulsion to find evidence to satisfy other people's minimum requirements for belief.

That is so intellectually ridiculous. Why does a god require no evidence but almost everything else in our life does? If I go to cross the street I have to act on evidence. If I am using my stove I have to act on evidence. If I'm choosing a good university I have to act on evidence. Why is it that when choosing a deity to believe in, it requires no evidence to act? 

Almost every single other thing in our lives require evidence.

But because you were raised in your faith, you accept it as self-evident. It doesn't need evidence, it's just true to you, for no good reason at all.

Yeah, and what? Why do I need a reason to think something is true when the choices are simply "I feel this way" or "I feel that way"? If someone says you, "I'm in love with Jane and I'm going to ask her to marry me," do you demand evidence of their love and if so, by what metric do you judge another person's affection? -Or do you simply examine the testimony of this person and maybe some indirect evidence as being sufficient to decide, "Yes, I believe they're in love," or "No, I don't believe they're in love." Either way, you never really know for sure.

What explanation do I owe to anyone other than myself to justify a position that has no impact on them what-so-ever? -Now in fairness, I might align myself with a group of people who have loads of wooy ideas and try to influence the public sphere based on those ideas, but I haven't identified myself as that kind of person. I have only addressed the subject of belief.

(October 11, 2018 at 3:21 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: "Evidence for god. Do you have any?" recent topic had long and complex arguments, which I had hard time following.

I would like to see the same topic continued, but arguments must be as simple and short as possible, so everyone could follow them.

My short point is that God, even if He exists there can have an endless variations of Him, because we cannot know for sure. Yes, Bible can be true, but it's only a small chance that God uses his endless Might and Wisdom to do what even humans don't do for the most part - torture as long as you want to show how Badass you are.

Short as possible? 

PSR

(October 12, 2018 at 3:00 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(October 11, 2018 at 3:21 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: "Evidence for god. Do you have any?" recent topic had long and complex arguments, which I had hard time following.

I would like to see the same topic continued, but arguments must be as simple and short as possible, so everyone could follow them.

My short point is that God, even if He exists there can have an endless variations of Him, because we cannot know for sure. Yes, Bible can be true, but it's only a small chance that God uses his endless Might and Wisdom to do what even humans don't do for the most part - torture as long as you want to show how Badass you are.

Short as possible? 

PSR

I think there isn't a sufficient reason to trust religious texts. Especially if God is said to have the right to do the most unthinkable - torture for as long as he wants with his Divine powers. Even Tyrans mostly executed their opposition.

(October 12, 2018 at 2:39 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 2:10 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: That is so intellectually ridiculous. Why does a god require no evidence but almost everything else in our life does? If I go to cross the street I have to act on evidence. If I am using my stove I have to act on evidence. If I'm choosing a good university I have to act on evidence. Why is it that when choosing a deity to believe in, it requires no evidence to act? 

Almost every single other thing in our lives require evidence.

But because you were raised in your faith, you accept it as self-evident. It doesn't need evidence, it's just true to you, for no good reason at all.

Yeah, and what? Why do I need a reason to think something is true when the choices are simply "I feel this way" or "I feel that way"? If someone says you, "I'm in love with Jane and I'm going to ask her to marry me," do you demand evidence of their love and if so, by what metric do you judge another person's affection? -Or do you simply examine the testimony of this person and maybe some indirect evidence as being sufficient to decide, "Yes, I believe they're in love," or "No, I don't believe they're in love." Either way, you never really know for sure.

What explanation do I owe to anyone other than myself to justify a position that has no impact on them what-so-ever? -Now in fairness, I might align myself with a group of people who have loads of wooy ideas and try to influence the public sphere based on those ideas, but I haven't identified myself as that kind of person. I have only addressed the subject of belief.

First of all, your example makes ZERO sense in relation to what I'm saying for a myriad of reasons, but I'll play your little game. In this example you put forth, said person would have some personal evidence that Jane loves them back. In your case, there is nothing. Just an empty exclamation of "I believe in a god... because I do."

In reality you believe in god because, more than likely, you were raised in that set of beliefs and rather than examining those beliefs, which is uncomfortable, you've simply accepted them as true.

So if you're fine with being that intellectually dishonest with yourself, you're right, who cares?

I don't. But I certinaly will not flinch at telling you how intellectually dishonest you are. I wonder if you could get away with that in school?

Professor, you're just going to have to trust that I did my assignment. Why do I owe you any explanation? The assignment is done and that's that.

(October 12, 2018 at 4:15 pm)PRJA93 Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 2:39 pm)Aliza Wrote: Yeah, and what? Why do I need a reason to think something is true when the choices are simply "I feel this way" or "I feel that way"? If someone says you, "I'm in love with Jane and I'm going to ask her to marry me," do you demand evidence of their love and if so, by what metric do you judge another person's affection? -Or do you simply examine the testimony of this person and maybe some indirect evidence as being sufficient to decide, "Yes, I believe they're in love," or "No, I don't believe they're in love." Either way, you never really know for sure.

What explanation do I owe to anyone other than myself to justify a position that has no impact on them what-so-ever? -Now in fairness, I might align myself with a group of people who have loads of wooy ideas and try to influence the public sphere based on those ideas, but I haven't identified myself as that kind of person. I have only addressed the subject of belief.

First of all, your example makes ZERO sense in relation to what I'm saying for a myriad of reasons, but I'll play your little game. In this example you put forth, said person would have some personal evidence that Jane loves them back. In your case, there is nothing. Just an empty exclamation of "I believe in a god... because I do."

In reality you believe in god because, more than likely, you were raised in that set of beliefs and rather than examining those beliefs, which is uncomfortable, you've simply accepted them as true.

So if you're fine with being that intellectually dishonest with yourself, you're right, who cares?

I don't. But I certinaly will not flinch at telling you how intellectually dishonest you are. I wonder if you could get away with that in school?

Professor, you're just going to have to  trust that I did my assignment. Why do I owe you any explanation? The assignment is done and that's that.

Okay, so don't. No one is asking you to.

---

(October 12, 2018 at 2:17 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 1:49 pm)Aliza Wrote: I also wonder why atheists bother asking that question. In asking that, they're issuing me a challenge and they know I don't have an answer for it. But somehow, they think I've never thought of that question, have never pondered it, and that somehow in asking me this I'm supposed to have this instant moment of sudden realization that everything I've ever believed is false.

I don't know where G-d comes from and I don't really give a shit because my belief isn't based on my ability to explain the origins of G-d.  My belief is based on my evaluation of the material that's been presented to me, and not a single person has given me a good reason for me to change my position. People have given me good reasons to lesson my religious observance, and I've acted on those reasons.

Well, the question is usually meant as a counter to the question that is asked by some theists challenging atheists, namely "where did the universe come from?" We don't usually do it just to taunt theists like you.

Nevermind. Apparently, some of us do.

Yup.

(October 12, 2018 at 4:40 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 4:15 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: First of all, your example makes ZERO sense in relation to what I'm saying for a myriad of reasons, but I'll play your little game. In this example you put forth, said person would have some personal evidence that Jane loves them back. In your case, there is nothing. Just an empty exclamation of "I believe in a god... because I do."

In reality you believe in god because, more than likely, you were raised in that set of beliefs and rather than examining those beliefs, which is uncomfortable, you've simply accepted them as true.

So if you're fine with being that intellectually dishonest with yourself, you're right, who cares?

I don't. But I certinaly will not flinch at telling you how intellectually dishonest you are. I wonder if you could get away with that in school?

Professor, you're just going to have to  trust that I did my assignment. Why do I owe you any explanation? The assignment is done and that's that.

Okay, so don't. No one is asking you to.

Reads as... "Don't call me out because I don't like having to defend my beliefs because I think I shouldn't have to."

Sounds good.

(October 12, 2018 at 4:48 pm)PRJA93 Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 4:40 pm)Aliza Wrote: Okay, so don't. No one is asking you to.

Reads as... "Don't call me out because I don't like having to defend my beliefs because I think I shouldn't have to."

Sounds good.  

I don't have to defend my beliefs to you. I doubt I can defend them to your satisfaction or whatever metric you go by, and I simply don't have to. And if I was interested in explaining them to try to be understood, you wouldn't be my audience of choice because you seem a tad on the rabid side.

So you go work yourself up into a self-righteous tizzy. I have things to do.

(October 12, 2018 at 4:52 pm)Aliza Wrote:

(October 12, 2018 at 4:48 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: Reads as... "Don't call me out because I don't like having to defend my beliefs because I think I shouldn't have to."

Sounds good.  

I don't have to defend my beliefs to you. I doubt I can defend them to your satisfaction or whatever metric you go by, and I simply don't have to. And if I was interested in explaining them to try to be understood, you wouldn't be my audience of choice because you seem a tad on the rabid side.

So you go work yourself up into a self-righteous tizzy. I have things to do.

Rabid? Self-righteous "tizzy?" So now you're resorting to insulting me because I'm challenging your intellectual dishonesty? How childish. I wonder if you always do this when someone disagrees with you. Sad.

Let her have her belief. AFAIK, she's not trying to insult anyone's intelligence and she's being completely honest by admitting there's no evidence for the God she believes in. Why this pushiness?

(October 12, 2018 at 5:17 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Let her have her belief. AFAIK, she's not trying to insult anyone's intelligence and she's being completely honest by admitting there's no evidence for the God she believes in. Why this pushiness?

No one has to "let her" have her belief. She can believe whatever she wants, however she wants. It doesn't require me or anyone else, for that matter, to "let her" do it. And pushiness? No, not really. I'm just pointing out the intellectual dishonesty. Pushy would be, oh I don't know, maybe knocking on people's doors to try and convince them to become atheists. THAT'D be pushy. How strange to for you to even chime in like that, considering she was the one insulting me. This is, in fact, a thread about evidence for god, on a forum called "Atheist Forum." Are you surprised a theist is being challenged?

I'm was perfectly willing to let it go, but then she decided to be insulting toward me, so I called her out on that too. That's not being pushy, simply holding her to the standard I would expect anyone else to live up to on here. You don't start insulting people who simply disagree with you.

If anything, you should be calling her out for being insulting.