Muslims have toughest religion and you can find on google text and video testimonies of ex-muslims.

(November 10, 2018 at 2:29 am)Dragonfly Wrote:

(November 9, 2018 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: People change their mind. Atheism is usually a position one is convinced they have no good reason to believe in God.

That stance may change, if you look for proofs on earth, and seek to increase your knowledge. You never know.

Have hope and act on it.  I don't think most religious believe a person who strives to know God and dies ignorant of Him will be punished.

And to be apathetic to the question is irrational since by definition he is the Highest Being and is Worth knowing and getting to know.

And in all this - I would not wait for a Theist like me to prove God.  I may have bad way of presenting proofs and don't articulate what I know well.

Look for those who if God would exist,  are the best possible way to know Him, and would be his representatives.

If you don't give God a chance to prove himself nor his representatives,  and wait for Theists, you might be waiting your whole life and be never satisfied.

And there is always a guide be it hidden or not per my creed, and if you ask God humbly, perhaps he will get him to come to you and show you miracles as in the type Moses and Jesus are reported to have done!

That would be an easy way out but there is too much harm if you are averse to the truth, it may lead you to opposition to the Guide and joining the dark forces, if he shows you miracles and you then move the goal posts and accuse him of being a sorcerer.

So humble your heart, and ask God to guide you to that path and name he has named himself with and the path that is his path, and the guide that is given his authority, and perhaps, through the Guide of age, he will show you miracles, and you won't even need to think of rational proofs, though I am sure after, you would be come acquainted with those and they would be proof among many proofs you have!

You never know - just try it!

I don't think you understand. I'm 50. I've spent my entire LIFE looking for proofs on earth and seeking to increase my knowledge. I tried to fit myself into various belief systems. I've tried to bolster my belief. I asked others to pray for me. I explored. I've prayed, begged, cried, tried, etc., even praying month after month this year: God, please show me who you are, and help me to believe in you. If you are holy, then help me to be like you. If I am resistant to truth, then please help soften my heart and help me to desire to be like you and draw closer to you.

And the prayers only became more and more desperate over the last several months. God, if you can hear me, please help me! I'm losing my belief in you. I really need you to show me you exist. 

---

And no, nature itself hasn't been enough "evidence." 

And finally, my prayers have dwindled to an occasional flailing of a dying belief: God, I have almost nothing left. Please help.

"Have hope and act on it." 
I'm pretty sure I've tried my best at this one. 

"Look for those who if God would exist, are the best possible way to know Him, and would be his representatives."
I have not found these people to exist. There are good and bad representatives/people in every belief system. The fact that good and bad people can exist outside of belief leads me to think belief might be overrated. 

IF I give God a chance? Are you fucking kidding me? I have been: 

a fundamentalist Christian
an attendee of the Brethren Church
a Baptist
a nondenominational Christian
a deist
someone who spent a month (not long, I'll admit) studying Zen Buddhism and sitting regularly at a zendo
someone who explored paganism
a New Ager
a Jew

I was also schooled in Christian schools for nearly all of my childhood and finished a degree at a Christian college. 

I have given God EVERY CHANCE to show himself to me, but he hasn't. I went looking for God all over, and I couldn't find him.  

"...if you ask God humbly" perhaps he'll show me miracles
Done, and no miracles. 

"That would be an easy way out but there is too much harm if you are averse to the truth, it may lead you to opposition to the Guide and joining the dark forces, if he shows you miracles and you then move the goal posts and accuse him of being a sorcerer."

Which is it? Will he show me miracles or not? Averse to the truth? From everything I've described, do you still think I'm adverse to the truth? Really?

And if I am not finding evidence that God exists, then why would I believe in dark forces or sorcery?

"So humble your heart, and ask God to guide you to that path and name he has named himself with and the path that is his path, and the guide that is given his authority, and perhaps, through the Guide of age, he will show you miracles, and you won't even need to think of rational proofs, though I am sure after, you would be come acquainted with those and they would be proof among many proofs you have!

You never know - just try it!"

---

Been there, done that, and no miracles or proofs despite lots of trying, praying, searching, begging, pleading. There is no one listening. He is simply not there.

I think radical acceptance works for religion just as well as for secular beliefs. Absurdists believe that the world makes no sense, yet they believe it's good to persevere nonetheless. And people have been lacking a good answer to nihilism since the powerful 19th and 20th century explorations of it by Nietzsche and others, yet people continue living in the absence of a definite answer. It would certainly be nice if God showed himself, and you may fervently want him to do so, but I think that there's something to be said for persevering in belief in the absence of proof and evidence. And I get that this is a struggle, perhaps more in that you feel your faith fading and want Him to show himself by rescuing your belief. I understand that. But just as with atheists, absurdists and nihilist, I think the power to prevail in your belief and trust in God lies within you. Perhaps you don't think so, and have given up hope of either doing so on your own, failing God intervening and helping you. I'm not trying to judge, and if I'm wrong, please forgive me, I'm just trying to help, but I'm not sure you'll find the challenges of belief in the absence of evidence any less challenging on the atheist side, and perhaps a different... something... approach? commitment? idea? may be needed. I sympathize as up until this summer I had struggled with chronic depression, the last few years of which have been marked by a distinct lack of interest in life and activities, and no matter how much my psychiatrist suggested that I develop interests or fake it till I make it, that lack remained. I suspect you may be in a similar situation, perhaps also somewhat due to depression, but I still think there is something to be said for acting in the absence of clear reasons or motivation to do so, regardless of whether that is toward God or away from Him.

(November 10, 2018 at 2:29 am)Dragonfly Wrote:

(November 9, 2018 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: People change their mind. Atheism is usually a position one is convinced they have no good reason to believe in God.

That stance may change, if you look for proofs on earth, and seek to increase your knowledge. You never know.

Have hope and act on it.  I don't think most religious believe a person who strives to know God and dies ignorant of Him will be punished.

And to be apathetic to the question is irrational since by definition he is the Highest Being and is Worth knowing and getting to know.

And in all this - I would not wait for a Theist like me to prove God.  I may have bad way of presenting proofs and don't articulate what I know well.

Look for those who if God would exist,  are the best possible way to know Him, and would be his representatives.

If you don't give God a chance to prove himself nor his representatives,  and wait for Theists, you might be waiting your whole life and be never satisfied.

And there is always a guide be it hidden or not per my creed, and if you ask God humbly, perhaps he will get him to come to you and show you miracles as in the type Moses and Jesus are reported to have done!

That would be an easy way out but there is too much harm if you are averse to the truth, it may lead you to opposition to the Guide and joining the dark forces, if he shows you miracles and you then move the goal posts and accuse him of being a sorcerer.

So humble your heart, and ask God to guide you to that path and name he has named himself with and the path that is his path, and the guide that is given his authority, and perhaps, through the Guide of age, he will show you miracles, and you won't even need to think of rational proofs, though I am sure after, you would be come acquainted with those and they would be proof among many proofs you have!

You never know - just try it!

I don't think you understand. I'm 50. I've spent my entire LIFE looking for proofs on earth and seeking to increase my knowledge. I tried to fit myself into various belief systems. I've tried to bolster my belief. I asked others to pray for me. I explored. I've prayed, begged, cried, tried, etc., even praying month after month this year: God, please show me who you are, and help me to believe in you. If you are holy, then help me to be like you. If I am resistant to truth, then please help soften my heart and help me to desire to be like you and draw closer to you.

And the prayers only became more and more desperate over the last several months. God, if you can hear me, please help me! I'm losing my belief in you. I really need you to show me you exist. 

And no, nature itself hasn't been enough "evidence." 

And finally, my prayers have dwindled to an occasional flailing of a dying belief: God, I have almost nothing left. Please help.

"Have hope and act on it." 
I'm pretty sure I've tried my best at this one. 

"Look for those who if God would exist, are the best possible way to know Him, and would be his representatives."
I have not found these people to exist. There are good and bad representatives/people in every belief system. The fact that good and bad people can exist outside of belief leads me to think belief might be overrated. 

IF I give God a chance? Are you fucking kidding me? I have been: 

a fundamentalist Christian
an attendee of the Brethren Church
a Baptist
a nondenominational Christian
a deist
someone who spent a month (not long, I'll admit) studying Zen Buddhism and sitting regularly at a zendo
someone who explored paganism
a New Ager
a Jew

I was also schooled in Christian schools for nearly all of my childhood and finished a degree at a Christian college. 

I have given God EVERY CHANCE to show himself to me, but he hasn't. I went looking for God all over, and I couldn't find him.  

"...if you ask God humbly" perhaps he'll show me miracles
Done, and no miracles. 

"That would be an easy way out but there is too much harm if you are averse to the truth, it may lead you to opposition to the Guide and joining the dark forces, if he shows you miracles and you then move the goal posts and accuse him of being a sorcerer."

Which is it? Will he show me miracles or not? Averse to the truth? From everything I've described, do you still think I'm adverse to the truth? Really?

And if I am not finding evidence that God exists, then why would I believe in dark forces or sorcery?

"So humble your heart, and ask God to guide you to that path and name he has named himself with and the path that is his path, and the guide that is given his authority, and perhaps, through the Guide of age, he will show you miracles, and you won't even need to think of rational proofs, though I am sure after, you would be come acquainted with those and they would be proof among many proofs you have!

You never know - just try it!"

Been there, done that, and no miracles or proofs despite lots of trying, praying, searching, begging, pleading. There is no one listening. He is simply not there.

I am sorry to hear!

May God reward your search for Him regardless if you end up finding Him/Her/It or not!

I would still not give up - perhaps - God will still show you miracles through the Guide of our time, if you keep some hope and continue to pray!

Right, he's just 50 years late for the dance is all.  He'll be here any minute now, and take somebody to the prom.

He'd never stand somebody up and leave them wallowing in depression and feelings of worthlessness..right, cuz that's super shitty...and we all know that good gods don't do (or say) super shitty things.

(November 10, 2018 at 11:54 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I would still not give up - perhaps - God will still show you miracles through the Guide of our time, if you keep some hope and continue to pray!

Watch my ass! Watch my ass!


Monkeys are going to fly out of it any moment now.

I guess Jormungandr has no response...

Why you guys continue to act like I don't post receipts is beyond me.

---

(November 2, 2018 at 3:20 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: @Huggy74

"You've been here all of five minutes, what I'm saying isn't assumed, it comes from reading various posts by suicidal and/or depressed athiest members over the years. Atheism has a suicide problem..."

I've been here all of five minutes? I started the thread. Not sure where you're coming up with five minutes.

Every culture, every religion has depressed and suicidal people. If atheism DOES have a suicide problem, why are you assuming that it's their lack of belief in god causing it?

I got side tracked...

What I meant was, you're new here so you haven't seen some of the posts I was referring to.

There is a scripture I'm sure you are familiar with "man shall not live by bread alone"...

What this means is that food is not all that's required for us to sustain life, there is a spiritual man that needs to eat too, except he subsists on spiritual things.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. -  Galatians 5:22-23

One cannot have love, joy, peace ect., if he is suicidal and/or depressed. How you achieve those things is by loving your neighbor, by being selfless. By doing things for others is one fulfilled.

Atheists are starting to realize their lives are missing something and hence are starting churches in order to have that sense of 'community'[from the word communion]...

The irony being the bible give you the instructions on how to find what you're looking for, but everyone seems to have to do their own thing. So when you stated:

(November 10, 2018 at 2:29 am)Dragonfly Wrote: I tried to fit myself into various belief systems. I've tried to bolster my belief. I asked others to pray for me. I explored. I've prayed, begged, cried, tried, etc., even praying month after month this year: God, please show me who you are, and help me to believe in you. If you are holy, then help me to be like you. If I am resistant to truth, then please help soften my heart and help me to desire to be like you and draw closer to you.

Can you honestly say you've followed the simple instructions laid out by the bible, of which there are only two?

(November 9, 2018 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: And to be apathetic to the question is irrational since by definition he is hypothetically the Highest Being and is Worth knowing and getting to know.

Fixed that for you with my bolding. If one honestly thinks the hypothetical in this case is silly then apatheism isn't irrational, it simply describes your actual stance.

(November 9, 2018 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You never know - just try it!

What about crack cocaine? Should we give that a fair try too?

(November 11, 2018 at 10:52 am)Huggy74 Wrote: I guess Jormungandr has no response...

Why you guys continue to act like I don't post receipts is beyond me.

---

(November 2, 2018 at 3:20 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: @Huggy74

"You've been here all of five minutes, what I'm saying isn't assumed, it comes from reading various posts by suicidal and/or depressed athiest members over the years. Atheism has a suicide problem..."

I've been here all of five minutes? I started the thread. Not sure where you're coming up with five minutes.

Every culture, every religion has depressed and suicidal people. If atheism DOES have a suicide problem, why are you assuming that it's their lack of belief in god causing it?

I got side tracked...

What I meant was, you're new here so you haven't seen some of the posts I was referring to.

There is a scripture I'm sure you are familiar with "man shall not live by bread alone"...

What this means is that food is not all that's required for us to sustain life, there is a spiritual man that needs to eat too, except he subsists on spiritual things.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. -  Galatians 5:22-23

One cannot have love, joy, peace ect., if he is suicidal and/or depressed. How you achieve those things is by loving your neighbor, by being selfless. By doing things for others is one fulfilled.

Atheists are starting to realize their lives are missing something and hence are starting churches in order to have that sense of 'community'[from the word communion]...

The irony being the bible give you the instructions on how to find what you're looking for, but everyone seems to have to do their own thing. So when you stated:

(November 10, 2018 at 2:29 am)Dragonfly Wrote: I tried to fit myself into various belief systems. I've tried to bolster my belief. I asked others to pray for me. I explored. I've prayed, begged, cried, tried, etc., even praying month after month this year: God, please show me who you are, and help me to believe in you. If you are holy, then help me to be like you. If I am resistant to truth, then please help soften my heart and help me to desire to be like you and draw closer to you.

Can you honestly say you've followed the simple instructions laid out by the bible, of which there are only two?

Yes, I can. 

And sure one can have love if they're depressed. Depressed people still love their friends and families. When you refer to depression, you haven't specified whether you're talking about the "blues" or clinical depression. I hope you're not suggesting that all depression is a simple matter of not loving your neighbor enough or being selfless enough. If you are, you really need to get educated about depression. 

"By their fruits ye shall know them." 
So if I were a Christian, I'd be wondering how your posting here demonstrates love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Pretty self-righteous and hypocritical of you to try to hold others to a standard that you do not meet. According to this passage, you are a barren tree. 

And once again, thanks for hijacking my thread. You've shown yourself to be a selfish asshole who doesn't care about boundaries or helping anyone, only trying to "win." In many ways, you've helped me settle into my non-belief.

(November 11, 2018 at 5:47 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: "By their fruits ye shall know them." 
So if I were a Christian, I'd be wondering how your posting here demonstrates love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Pretty self-righteous and hypocritical of you to try to hold others to a standard that you do not meet. According to this passage, you are a barren tree.

That's the thing. All these Christians coming to us to show us the way (as in accordance with the Bible) and yet every single one of them has failed multiple times to show the qualities mentioned above. Makes me really wonder about their so-called "born again" status. Shouldn't these people be way above us in terms of these qualities? And yet they're pretty much the same as us!

(November 11, 2018 at 10:52 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Can you honestly say you've followed the simple instructions laid out by the bible, of which there are only two?

What a stupid lie. Don't you realise we can just pick up the bible and check only to discover your lie?