Posts: 7568
Threads: 20
Joined: July 26, 2013
Reputation:
54
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 11:50 am
(November 13, 2018 at 5:00 am)Grandizer Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 4:29 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Exactly! That's why the disciples used the NAME Jesus Christ.
You can't find anywhere in the bible where the disciples baptized using the titles of father, son, and holy spirit.
No Evangelical group I'm aware of does baptism in terms of titles, so I'm really not sure what your issue is exactly, if you're actually ok with the wording in Matthew.
I mean, I get it, you're of the Oneness type, and you firmly believe baptism should be in the name of Jesus, but that Matthew passage is literally what many Christians follow. It's not like they came up with this out of the blue.
Well, "Jesus Christ" is a title, despite Huggy's laughable assertion that it is a name.
Posts: 78
Threads: 3
Joined: September 22, 2018
Reputation:
6
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 12:13 pm
I actually haven't heard of anyone baptized in the name of Yeshua.
I said to the sun, tell me about the Big Bang.
The sun said, 'It hurts to become.'
~Andrea Gibson
Posts: 67172
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 1:41 pm
(This post was last modified: November 13, 2018 at 1:42 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 13, 2018 at 11:50 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 5:00 am)Grandizer Wrote: No Evangelical group I'm aware of does baptism in terms of titles, so I'm really not sure what your issue is exactly, if you're actually ok with the wording in Matthew.
I mean, I get it, you're of the Oneness type, and you firmly believe baptism should be in the name of Jesus, but that Matthew passage is literally what many Christians follow. It's not like they came up with this out of the blue.
Well, "Jesus Christ" is a title, despite Huggy's laughable assertion that it is a name.
Jesus H Christ. Son of Joseph M Christ and Mary F Christ. It said so right on the mailbox at the manger! 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 6609
Threads: 73
Joined: May 31, 2014
Reputation:
56
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 7:18 pm
(This post was last modified: November 13, 2018 at 7:19 pm by GrandizerII.)
(November 13, 2018 at 11:50 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 5:00 am)Grandizer Wrote: No Evangelical group I'm aware of does baptism in terms of titles, so I'm really not sure what your issue is exactly, if you're actually ok with the wording in Matthew.
I mean, I get it, you're of the Oneness type, and you firmly believe baptism should be in the name of Jesus, but that Matthew passage is literally what many Christians follow. It's not like they came up with this out of the blue.
Well, "Jesus Christ" is a title, despite Huggy's laughable assertion that it is a name.
Christ is the title, yeah. But that's besides the point. The point is that one passage in the Bible, which Huggy himself adheres to, clearly supports the practice of baptism in the "name" of the Trinity. And yet, Huggy sees it fit to reprimand other Christians for following that passage.
Posts: 4738
Threads: 7
Joined: October 17, 2013
Reputation:
15
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 8:16 pm
(This post was last modified: November 13, 2018 at 8:19 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(November 13, 2018 at 7:18 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 11:50 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: Well, "Jesus Christ" is a title, despite Huggy's laughable assertion that it is a name.
Christ is the title, yeah. But that's besides the point. The point is that one passage in the Bible, which Huggy himself adheres to, clearly supports the practice of baptism in the "name" of the Trinity. And yet, Huggy sees it fit to reprimand other Christians for following that passage.
But it doesn't support it at all, what you and everyone that thinks that scripture supports scripture are grossly misinterpreting it...
If i asked you for instance, to sign a contract in my name, are you literally going to sign it 'my name', or are you going to use my ACTUAL name?
The fact that Jesus was God in human flesh was a MYSTERY, people wanted to kill Jesus for saying he was the Son of God, let alone God.
Quote:The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. - John 10:33
Yet when he asked Peter for his thoughts on who he was and Peter stated that 'he was the Christ, Son of the living God', Jesus basically stated that knowledge of who he was could only be obtained directly from God REVEALING it to him.
Only something that is hidden need be revealed...
Hence Jesus said to Peter "upon this rock (the revelation of who he is) will I build my church". Then Jesus grants Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Quote:Matthew 16
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
*emphasis mine*
Do you think Jesus gave Peter a literal key to heaven? if not why do you think by saying to baptize in the name of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" he literally meant 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'?
When the people asked Peter what they must do to be saved, Peter having the key to heaven unlocked it by commanding them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Quote:Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Acts 2:38
Quote:Acts 4
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
*emphasis mine*
It states explicitly that there is no other name save the name of Jesus Christ, where anyone can be saved, THIS INCLUDES the titles of father, son, and holy spirit.
Posts: 6609
Threads: 73
Joined: May 31, 2014
Reputation:
56
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 8:21 pm
(This post was last modified: November 13, 2018 at 8:21 pm by GrandizerII.)
(November 13, 2018 at 8:16 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 7:18 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Christ is the title, yeah. But that's besides the point. The point is that one passage in the Bible, which Huggy himself adheres to, clearly supports the practice of baptism in the "name" of the Trinity. And yet, Huggy sees it fit to reprimand other Christians for following that passage.
But it doesn't support it at all, what you and everyone that thinks that scripture supports scripture are grossly misinterpreting it...
What does Matthew 28:19 say, Huggy?
Use those other passages you quoted when conversing with your fellow Christians. My focus is only on this one particular verse.
Posts: 78
Threads: 3
Joined: September 22, 2018
Reputation:
6
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 8:32 pm
(November 13, 2018 at 8:16 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 7:18 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Christ is the title, yeah. But that's besides the point. The point is that one passage in the Bible, which Huggy himself adheres to, clearly supports the practice of baptism in the "name" of the Trinity. And yet, Huggy sees it fit to reprimand other Christians for following that passage.
But it doesn't support it at all, what you and everyone that thinks that scripture supports scripture are grossly misinterpreting it...
If i asked you for instance, to sign a contract in my name, are you literally going to sign it 'my name', or are you going to use my ACTUAL name?
The fact that Jesus was God in human flesh was a MYSTERY, people wanted to kill Jesus for saying he was the Son of God, let alone God.
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. - John 10:33
Yet when he asked Peter for his thoughts on who he was and Peter stated that 'he was the Christ, Son of the living God', Jesus basically stated that knowledge of who he was could only be obtained directly from God REVEALING it to him.
Only something that is hidden need be revealed...
Hence Jesus said to Peter "upon this rock (the revelation of who he is) will I build my church". Then Jesus grants Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
Quote:Matthew 16
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
*emphasis mine*
Do you think Jesus gave Peter a literal key to heaven? if not why do you think by saying to baptize in the name of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" he literally meant 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'?
When the people asked Peter what they must do to be saved, Peter having the key to heaven unlocked it by commanding them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Quote:Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Acts 2:38
Quote:Acts 4
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
It states explicitly that there is no other name save the name of Jesus Christ, where anyone can be saved, THIS INCLUDES the titles of father, son, and holy spirit.
Actually, it was Yeshua, so, according to your rationale, if you weren't baptized in that name, you're pretty much screwed.
Interestingly, in the Christian "new testament," there were several people who were saved without baptism.
I'm curious. What denomination were you raised in? Do you belong to one or ascribe to one's teachings now, and if so, which one? I'm not familiar with Oneness that someone else mentioned. Pentecostal? I find it quite rare to encounter a Christian who thinks that baptism is required for entry into heaven. There are so many other verses that point to belief/faith, and you mention nothing of that. Essentially, you're making salvation based on works rather than faith.
I said to the sun, tell me about the Big Bang.
The sun said, 'It hurts to become.'
~Andrea Gibson
Posts: 4738
Threads: 7
Joined: October 17, 2013
Reputation:
15
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 10:30 pm
(November 13, 2018 at 8:21 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 8:16 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: But it doesn't support it at all, what you and everyone that thinks that scripture supports scripture are grossly misinterpreting it...
What does Matthew 28:19 say, Huggy?
Use those other passages you quoted when conversing with your fellow Christians. My focus is only on this one particular verse.
So basically what you're saying is that you have tunnel vision and are unwilling to look at all the other scriptures that put that one verse in context...
You can't find anywhere in the Bible where ANY of the disciples baptized using the trinitarian formula, they all baptized in the name of Jesus Christ... that should make it obvious how one should baptize. I mean, if in doubt, you'd figure you'd follow the example of the original apostles...
But no, imma just focus on this one particular verse...
Posts: 6609
Threads: 73
Joined: May 31, 2014
Reputation:
56
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 10:32 pm
(This post was last modified: November 13, 2018 at 10:33 pm by GrandizerII.)
(November 13, 2018 at 10:30 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 8:21 pm)Grandizer Wrote: What does Matthew 28:19 say, Huggy?
Use those other passages you quoted when conversing with your fellow Christians. My focus is only on this one particular verse.
So basically what you're saying is that you have tunnel vision and are unwilling to look at all the other scriptures that put that one verse in context...
You can't find anywhere in the Bible where ANY of the disciples baptized using the trinitarian formula, they all baptized in the name of Jesus Christ... that should make it obvious how one should baptize. I mean, if in doubt, you'd figure you'd follow the example of the original apostles...
But no, imma just focus on this one particular verse...
Whereas you will ignore it, lol.
Not my problem the Scriptures aren't crystal clear on this and other matters.
Personally, if I were a Christian, I'd say it doesn't really matter either way. Baptism in the name of Jesus or the F/S/H, they're both supported by the Bible.
Posts: 4738
Threads: 7
Joined: October 17, 2013
Reputation:
15
RE: IF you deconverted in midlife, can you help?
November 13, 2018 at 11:03 pm
(November 13, 2018 at 8:32 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: (November 13, 2018 at 8:16 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: But it doesn't support it at all, what you and everyone that thinks that scripture supports scripture are grossly misinterpreting it...
If i asked you for instance, to sign a contract in my name, are you literally going to sign it 'my name', or are you going to use my ACTUAL name?
The fact that Jesus was God in human flesh was a MYSTERY, people wanted to kill Jesus for saying he was the Son of God, let alone God.
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. - John 10:33
Yet when he asked Peter for his thoughts on who he was and Peter stated that 'he was the Christ, Son of the living God', Jesus basically stated that knowledge of who he was could only be obtained directly from God REVEALING it to him.
Only something that is hidden need be revealed...
Hence Jesus said to Peter "upon this rock (the revelation of who he is) will I build my church". Then Jesus grants Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
*emphasis mine*
Do you think Jesus gave Peter a literal key to heaven? if not why do you think by saying to baptize in the name of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" he literally meant 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit'?
When the people asked Peter what they must do to be saved, Peter having the key to heaven unlocked it by commanding them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
It states explicitly that there is no other name save the name of Jesus Christ, where anyone can be saved, THIS INCLUDES the titles of father, son, and holy spirit.
Actually, it was Yeshua, so, according to your rationale, if you weren't baptized in that name, you're pretty much screwed.
True, but in the modern english language it's Jesus. The Aramaic / Hebrew alphabet is not the same, nor do the equivalent letters have the same pronunciation.
(November 13, 2018 at 8:32 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Interestingly, in the Christian "new testament," there were several people who were saved without baptism.
Sure, there was the thief, but that was the first and only opportunity he had. God is just, he's not going to condemn someone who was willing, but never had the opportunity to hear the gospel. Hearing the gospel and then rejecting it, is a completely different thing all together, they shall be destroyed -- without remedy.
(November 13, 2018 at 8:32 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I'm curious. What denomination were you raised in? I'm not part of any denomination.
(November 13, 2018 at 8:32 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Do you belong to one or ascribe to one's teachings now, and if so, which one? I'm not familiar with Oneness that someone else mentioned. Pentecostal? I find it quite rare to encounter a Christian who thinks that baptism is required for entry into heaven. There are so many other verses that point to belief/faith, and you mention nothing of that. Essentially, you're making salvation based on works rather than faith.
Baptism is required for the remission of sin, and a person that dies in thier sin can't get into heaven...
Quote:Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
|
