Quote:Penrose is an award winning physicist who is considered a genius by the entire science community. Hameroff is a doctor who became interested in consciousness by reading Penrose's book and studying microtubules which he found fascinating. Yes their hypotheses was highly controversial from day one because it is more accomodating to spiritual approaches to consciousness. Like all other scientists and doctors in the world, they are not perfect. Because of them we know that there are quantum vibrations occuring in the microtubules of our brain and this has been proven and corroborated by three different groups of scientists. What ever you decide to make of it from there is up to you unless they prove something new. Currently there are no other theories of consciousness that have been proven.

Ms Woo-who-pretends-to-be-logical is at it again.
The above is the very definition of the argument from authority fallacy. Neither one of them are trained in Neuro-science.
Being an expert in one field gives NO ONE expertise in another. Would you have a world famous chemist do your heart surgery. LMAO

Obviously she HAS no answer to who cooked up her "the theory is .... "received" bullshit.

The order that arises (as seen in Chaos theory) PROVES no intelligence is necessary "for what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things."
And it's demonstrated in the link I provided.

She can't name anyone at MIT working on Penrose's crackpot theory.
She can't explain how two Neuro-scientists actually working there could write a book on consciousness, and not even mention Penrose.

(November 24, 2018 at 10:01 pm)Paleophyte Wrote:

(November 24, 2018 at 9:18 pm)Everena Wrote: Penrose is an award winning physicist who is considered a genius by the entire science community. Hameroff is a doctor who became interested in consciousness by reading Penrose's book and studying microtubules which he found fascinating. Yes their hypotheses was highly controversial from day one because it is more accomodating to spiritual approaches to consciousness. Like all other scientists and doctors in the world, they are not perfect. Because of them we know that there are quantum vibrations occuring in the microtubules of our brain and this has been proven and corroborated by three different groups of scientists. What ever you decide to make of it from there is up to you unless they prove something new. Currently there are no other theories of consciousness that have been proven.

Their notions don't work. You'd be dead if they did.

Everena: False. And no one in the entire world has said that besides you. I'm sure scientists would have mentioned that if it were true, so it very obviously is not true.

The theories that they are based upon are untested and don't actually exist, not to put to fine a point on it.

You know bubkis about what other theories of consciousness might have any evidence.

Everena: They have proven that there are quantum vibrations occuring in the microtubules inside our brains. This has been proven and corroborated and is refuted by no one. Get over it. It is fact.

Quote:in·for·ma·tion

1. facts provided or learned about something or someone.
2. what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things.

Note the information in the inanimate and unthinking.

Everena: Nope, Consciuos intelligence is required to create the arrangement and sequence of things and conscious intelligence is required to notice the arrangement or sequence of thing.

Quote:There is a God, so the only worry you have is about the life decisions you make. Here's an old song for you and Bucky and the gang.

Karma Chameleon? You just don't get irony do you?

Everena: I get why the song is fitting for a group of atheists. But.. do you?

Besides the sequences and order that we know arise in Chaos Theory, with no intelligence needed,
there are countless examples in nature of the Fibonacci sequence.

" Seed heads, pinecones, fruits and vegetables: Look at the array of seeds in the center of a sunflower and you'll notice what looks like spiral patterns curving left and right. Amazingly, if you count these spirals, your total will be a Fibonacci number. Divide the spirals into those pointed left and right and you'll get two consecutive Fibonacci numbers. You can decipher spiral patterns in pinecones, pineapples and cauliflower that also reflect the Fibonacci sequence in this manner. ­

Flowers and branches: Some plants express the Fibonacci sequence in their growth points, the places where tree branches form or split. One trunk grows until it produces a branch, resulting in two growth points. The main trunk then produces another branch, resulting in three growth points. Then the trunk and the first branch produce two more growth points, bringing the total to five. This pattern continues, following the Fibonacci numbers. Additionally, if you count the number of petals on a flower, you'll often find the total to be one of the numbers in the Fibonacci sequence. For example, lilies and irises have three petals, buttercups and wild roses have five, delphiniums have eight petals and so on.

Take a good look at the Romanesco cauliflower -- its spiral follows the Fibonacci sequence.
Honeybees: A honeybee colony consists of a queen, a few drones and lots of workers. The female bees (queens and workers) all have two parents, a drone and a queen. Drones, on the other hand, hatch from unfertilized eggs. This means they have only one parent. Therefore, Fibonacci numbers express a drone's family tree in that he has one parent, two grandparents, three great-grandparents and so forth.

The human body: Take a good look at yourself in the mirror. You'll notice that most of your body parts follow the numbers one, two, three and five. You have one nose, two eyes, three segments to each limb and five fingers on each hand. The proportions and measurements of the human body can also be divided up in terms of the golden ratio. DNA molecules follow this sequence, measuring 34 angstroms long and 21 angstroms wide for each full cycle of the double helix [source: Jovonovic].

Why do so many natural patterns reflect the Fibonacci sequence? Scientists have pondered the question for centuries. In some cases, the correlation may just be coincidence. In other situations, the ratio exists because that particular growth pattern evolved as the most effective. In plants, this may mean maximum exposure for light-hungry leaves or maximum seed arrangement."

The Mandelbrot set is another example of a complex set, no intelligence needed. It just occurs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set

(November 24, 2018 at 10:07 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

Quote:Penrose is an award winning physicist who is considered a genius by the entire science community. Hameroff is a doctor who became interested in consciousness by reading Penrose's book and studying microtubules which he found fascinating. Yes their hypotheses was highly controversial from day one because it is more accomodating to spiritual approaches to consciousness. Like all other scientists and doctors in the world, they are not perfect. Because of them we know that there are quantum vibrations occuring in the microtubules of our brain and this has been proven and corroborated by three different groups of scientists. What ever you decide to make of it from there is up to you unless they prove something new. Currently there are no other theories of consciousness that have been proven.

Ms Woo-who-pretends-to-be-logical is at it again.
The above is the very definition of the argument from authority fallacy. Neither one of them are trained in Neuro-science.
Being an expert in one field gives NO ONE expertise in another. Would you have a world famous chemist do your heart surgery. LMAO

Obviously she HAS no answer to who cooked up her "the theory is .... "received" bullshit.

The order that arises (as seen in Chaos theory) PROVES no intelligence is necessary "for what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things."
And it's demonstrated in the link I provided.

She can't name anyone at MIT working on Penrose's crackpot theory.
She can't explain how two Neuro-scientists actually working there could write a book on consciousness, and not even mention Penrose.

They do not have to be trained in neuroscience! Why do you even think so? Neuroscience completely ignored consciousness for decades, leaving it to philosophy. You are just not well educated to the point of it being annoying. Go to college and get an education before arguing with anymore adults.

(November 24, 2018 at 10:09 pm)Everena Wrote: They have proven that there are quantum vibrations occuring in the microtubules inside our brains. This has been proven and corroborated and is refuted by no one. Get over it. It is fact.

They have demonstrated quantum vibrations within microtubules. Big surprise! Everything has quantum fluctuations. You literally can't get rid of them!

Quote:Nope, Consciuos intelligence is required to create the arrangement and sequence of things and conscious intelligence is required to notice the arrangement or sequence of thing.

If you have two or more objects, then there is an arrangement of them by definition. No brains required.

(November 24, 2018 at 10:29 pm)Paleophyte Wrote:

(November 24, 2018 at 10:09 pm)Everena Wrote: They have proven that there are quantum vibrations occuring in the microtubules inside our brains. This has been proven and corroborated and is refuted by no one. Get over it. It is fact.

They have demonstrated quantum vibrations within microtubules. Big surprise! Everything has quantum fluctuations. You literally can't get rid of them!

Quote:Nope, Consciuos intelligence is required to create the arrangement and sequence of things and conscious intelligence is required to notice the arrangement or sequence of thing.

If you have two or more objects, then there is an arrangement of them by definition. No brains required.

What you are talking about is not information and you know it. And actually many scientists claimed the brain was too warm, wet and noisy for quantum processes and Penrose and Hameroff proved them all wrong. And no one knew there were quantum vibrations in our brain until 2014

(November 24, 2018 at 10:27 pm)Everena Wrote: They do not have to be trained in neuroscience! Why do you even think so? Neuroscience completely ignored consciousness for decades, leaving it to philosophy. You are just not well educated to the point of it being annoying. Go to college and get an education before arguing with anymore adults.

Call us old-fashioned, but perhaps they should have some training in the field that they are publishing in.

On an unrelated note, the drunk who lives on the corner tells me that there is no god. I'm not sure if he has any training in theology or philosophy but you have to concede his point.

LMAO.
"Why does someone researching neuro-science need to educated in neuro-science"
Oy vey

Bitch be cray-cray.

Neuro-sciencenever never ignored consciousness for decades. You just know nothing about the field.

(November 24, 2018 at 10:33 pm)Paleophyte Wrote:

(November 24, 2018 at 10:27 pm)Everena Wrote: They do not have to be trained in neuroscience! Why do you even think so? Neuroscience completely ignored consciousness for decades, leaving it to philosophy. You are just not well educated to the point of it being annoying. Go to college and get an education before arguing with anymore adults.

Call us old-fashioned, but perhaps they should have some training in the field that they are publishing in.

On an unrelated note, the drunk who lives on the corner tells me that there is no god. I'm not sure if he has any training in theology or philosophy but you have to concede his point.

They weren't publishing in that field, they published in the field of physics, and conscious self awareness does not have to be confined to neuroscience.

---

(November 24, 2018 at 10:35 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: LMAO.
"Why does someone researching neuro-science need to educated in neuro-science"
Oy vey

Bitch be cray-cray.

Neuro-sciencenever never ignored consciousness for decades. You just know nothing about the field.

I already proved this to you. Yes neuroscience sure did ignore consciousness for decades. No one in science was studying it until like 25 years ago. Stop blathering ignorant crap. Nothing you say is ever even remotely factual or accurate. Try researching.

(November 24, 2018 at 10:32 pm)Everena Wrote:

(November 24, 2018 at 10:29 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: They have demonstrated quantum vibrations within microtubules. Big surprise! Everything has quantum fluctuations. You literally can't get rid of them!


If you have two or more objects, then there is an arrangement of them by definition. No brains required.

What you are talking about is not information and you know it.

What I'm talking about is information by the definition that you very kindly provided. Information requires no consciousness. If you have two rocks then you have a distance between those two rocks. That's information.

Quote:And actually many scientists claimed the brain was too warm, wet and noisy for quantum processes

Too wet, warm and messy for coherence. Which it is. Please try and learn what you're babbling about.

Quote:and Penrose and Hameroff proved them all wrong. And no one knew there were quantum vibrations in our brain until 2014

Quantum vibrations are in everything, up to and including a theoretical perfect vacuum. That is literally the definition of zero point energy. If this were any less newsworthy it would have come out of the southern end of a north-bound bull.