(December 23, 2018 at 2:58 am)Maketakunai Wrote:

(December 22, 2018 at 8:32 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Yeah, I would like to know what, exactly, our "conservative atheist" friend wants in terms of public policy and/or law.

I'm glad you're happy. Kudos for asking a relevant question! My answer is actually... "I don't know what the answer is, but I know what the answer isn't." In fact, I'm not even sure that more laws will be the answer, and here's why.

Laws provide moral guidance in any society; laws also force those who break them (except for criminal cases) to at least be willing to commit perjury.

(December 23, 2018 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(December 23, 2018 at 2:58 am)Maketakunai Wrote:
I'm glad you're happy. Kudos for asking a relevant question! My answer is actually... "I don't know what the answer is, but I know what the answer isn't." In fact, I'm not even sure that more laws will be the answer, and here's why.

Laws provide moral guidance in any society; laws also force those who break them (except for criminal cases) to at least be willing to commit perjury.

So my prediction was correct and your spot on Jeh

(December 23, 2018 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(December 23, 2018 at 2:58 am)Maketakunai Wrote:
I'm glad you're happy. Kudos for asking a relevant question! My answer is actually... "I don't know what the answer is, but I know what the answer isn't." In fact, I'm not even sure that more laws will be the answer, and here's why.

Laws provide moral guidance in any society; laws also force those who break them (except for criminal cases) to at least be willing to commit perjury.

So let's recap shall we 

Me a persons who's job has lead them to help trans people get jobs  and homes  and deal with suicide as well as reunite families who have rejected their Trans members . Decides to write a thread attacking the ontological objections to transgender and does so accurately  and makes damn clear in their opening statement that this isn't exhaustive list of objections nor a refutation of political objections by the nature of the post. 

On the other we have a man who brings up a bunch of shit that has nothing to do with the intention of the thread and fails even at that. All the while chewing out the author they aren't doing anything and just wanting praise despite they above  . Then when challenged to come up with a solution of his own all he has is "I got nothing but no more laws " all the while siding with an ideology that has not only done nothing for the trans community but has openly attacked it.

(December 23, 2018 at 8:13 pm)Amarok Wrote:

(December 23, 2018 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote: Laws provide moral guidance in any society; laws also force those who break them (except for criminal cases) to at least be willing to commit perjury.

So let's recap shall we 

Me a persons who's job has lead them to help trans people get jobs  and homes  and deal with suicide as well as reunite families who have rejected their Trans members . Decides to write a thread attacking the ontological objections to transgender and does so accurately  and makes damn clear in their opening statement that this isn't exhaustive list of objections nor a refutation of political objections by the nature of the post. 

On the other we have a man who brings up a bunch of shit that has nothing to do with the intention of the thread and fails even at that. All the while chewing out the author they aren't doing anything and just wanting praise despite they above  . Then when challenged to come up with a solution of his own all he has is "I got nothing but no more laws " all the while siding with an ideology that has not only done nothing for the trans community but has openly attacked it.

There are people out there who are just fine with discriminating against LGBTQ people; they don't do so because such is illegal and they respect the Law. Others don't give a damn, and with those folks, there is always law enforcement.

(December 23, 2018 at 8:39 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(December 23, 2018 at 8:13 pm)Amarok Wrote: So let's recap shall we 

Me a persons who's job has lead them to help trans people get jobs  and homes  and deal with suicide as well as reunite families who have rejected their Trans members . Decides to write a thread attacking the ontological objections to transgender and does so accurately  and makes damn clear in their opening statement that this isn't exhaustive list of objections nor a refutation of political objections by the nature of the post. 

On the other we have a man who brings up a bunch of shit that has nothing to do with the intention of the thread and fails even at that. All the while chewing out the author they aren't doing anything and just wanting praise despite they above  . Then when challenged to come up with a solution of his own all he has is "I got nothing but no more laws " all the while siding with an ideology that has not only done nothing for the trans community but has openly  attacked it.

There are people out there who are just fine with discriminating against LGBTQ people; they don't do so because such is illegal and they respect the Law.  Others don't give a damn, and with those folks, there is always law enforcement.

True enough

(December 23, 2018 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(December 23, 2018 at 2:58 am)Maketakunai Wrote:
I'm glad you're happy. Kudos for asking a relevant question! My answer is actually... "I don't know what the answer is, but I know what the answer isn't." In fact, I'm not even sure that more laws will be the answer, and here's why.

Laws provide moral guidance in any society; laws also force those who break them (except for criminal cases) to at least be willing to commit perjury.

You don't particularly like the laws that are already in place to give moral guidance in our society. This seems to be a key point in your argument, so it's not a very effective one. That makes you an immoral person according to your own philosophy. Considering that no one needs to commit perjury to discriminate, it's also just not very well thought out.

Example: A landlord requires that rsidents make 3 times the cost of the apartments rent per month. The transgender community has a very high unemployment rate. So, whether or not a landlord likes transgenders, if they cannot provide proof of the income requirement like everyone else they simply don't qualify for a lease. Even if that landlord hated transexuals to the very core of his being, he would not be committing perjury to say that a transexual did not meet the financial requirements to rent an apartment in his building because they have no verifiable income. As long as he enforces that policy fairly it is not discrimination.

As I said before, laws that protect you also protect everyone else, If our trans person tried to sue that landlord in this kind of scenario alleging discrimination they would probably lose. Additionally, they would probably have to pay for the cost of the lawsuit and hope like hell there wasn't a countersuit.

You seem dedicated to the notion that passing more laws will keep people from discriminating against you in spite of the laws we already have on the books to keep people from discriminating against you. It should be pretty obvious that laws are only as effective as the willingness to enforce them. So, if your position is that passing new laws will be effective because no one is willing to enforce the laws we already have then I suspect there will be even more disappointment in your future.

So... good luck with that.

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(December 23, 2018 at 8:13 pm)Amarok Wrote:

(December 23, 2018 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote: Laws provide moral guidance in any society; laws also force those who break them (except for criminal cases) to at least be willing to commit perjury.

... he has is "I got nothing but no more laws " all the while siding with an ideology that has not only done nothing for the trans community but has openly  attacked it.

Let's be clear douchebag...

I've come out on the side that's saying the trans community needs to help it's own more and stop being perpetual victims. My ideology is that they work together to find solutions for themselves instead of attempting to pass more ineffective laws that have a history of not working. 

How in the actual fuck is it hateful to say "What you've been doing clearly isn't working out very well and it might be a good idea to try something that has already proven to be effective."

You are a fucking moron!

Quote:Let's be clear douchebag...

Yes let's be clear this comment contains no actual policies or any real solutions aside you stroking yourself and and mothing conservative talking points .

Quote:I've come out on the side that's saying the trans community needs to help it's own more and stop being perpetual victims.

Yes because victims should  not act like victims.... So your solution is just shifting the blame and shifting the responsibility and topping it of with vapid appeal to  "help it's own"  which honestly just sounds like " I don't really care let them deal with it .

Quote:My ideology is that they work together to find solutions for themselves instead of attempting to pass more ineffective laws that have a history of not working. 

Or the laws could actually be made effective and we could ignore your vapid appeals to "Find solutions for themselves" which is just more shifting and more rhetoric ' and again sounds like " I don't really care let them deal with it "

Quote:[color=#333333]How in the actual fuck is it hateful to say "What you've been doing clearly isn't working out very well and it might be a good idea to try something that has already proven to be effective."

Yet more vapid ideological appeals and sounds once more like " I don't really care let them deal with it " . As well as a apparent denial of the American rights contempt and open hostility to the Trans community that has nothing to do with laws .

Quote:You are a fucking moron!

Says the man who has done nothing for the trans community and offers nothing but vapid ideological rhetoric to the man who's been helping it for decades  and has helped fix the lives of many trans folk .


So his whole comment is just empty political mental masturbation it probably makes him feel good but means nothing .

(December 23, 2018 at 8:13 pm)Amarok Wrote: Me a persons who's job has lead them to help trans people get jobs  and homes  and deal with suicide as well as reunite families who have rejected their Trans members . Decides to write a thread attacking the ontological objections to transgender and does so accurately  and makes damn clear in their opening statement that this isn't exhaustive list of objections nor a refutation of political objections by the nature of the post. 

So... let's recap.

You have your little advocacy beliefs and want to pass a bunch of laws that clearly won't work any better than they ones we already have. More to the point, you work for for the very system that causes a suicide rate among the people you allegedly "help" to be 9X higher than the norm. 

You also think it's hateful for me to believe that a suicide rate of 9X the norm is too high. I'm an awful homophobe for thinking that maybe trans people ought to look for a better solution to their problems than the one that's led them to a suicide rate of 9X the norm. 

This is Darwinism in action...

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(December 24, 2018 at 2:51 am)Amarok Wrote:

Quote:I've come out on the side that's saying the trans community needs to help it's own more and stop being perpetual victims.

Yes because victims should  not act like victims.... So your solution is just shifting the blame and shifting the responsibility and topping it of with vapid appeal to  "help it's own"  which honestly just sounds like  " I don't really care let them deal with it .

No, because people who are able to solve their own damn problems tend to be considerably less miserable in life.  You can solve your own problems. Why the hell do you think other people don't want to. Would you be happy in life if the only way you could get a job or a home would be to come beg me for help? Why should anyone be in that position? Why do you think anyone likes having to be in that position to begin with?

Quote:My ideology is that they work together to find solutions for themselves instead of attempting to pass more ineffective laws that have a history of not working. 

Or the laws could actually be made effective and we could ignore your vapid appeals to "Find solutions for themselves" which is just more shifting and more rhetoric ' and again sounds like " I don't really care let them deal with it "

Oh, the "We will do it better!" argument. Yeah.... that's worked out pretty well for just about no one ever. Maybe you should go to the inner city and ask some black people how "We'll do it better!" is working out. Visit N. Korea and see how well it "We'll do communism better!" is working out for them. 

Quote:How in the actual fuck is it hateful to say "What you've been doing clearly isn't working out very well and it might be a good idea to try something that has already proven to be effective."

Yet more vapid ideological appeals and sounds once more like " I don't really care let them deal with it " . As well as a apparent denial of the American rights contempt and open hostility to the Trans community that has nothing to do with laws .

No, I have every confidence that they can do a better job of helping themselves than you've done trying to solve all their problems for them.

Quote:You are a fucking moron!

Says the man who has done nothing for the trans community and offers nothing but  vapid ideological rhetoric  to the man who's been helping it for decades  and has helped fix the lives of many trans folk  .


So his whole comment is just empty political mental masturbation it probably makes him feel good but means nothing .

No, you're just a fucking moron.

Quote:So... let's recap.

Yes lets 

Quote:You have your little advocacy beliefs and want to pass a bunch of laws that clearly won't work any better than they ones we already have.

Nope I have my track record of effectively helping trans people and my suggestion that we actually make the laws work . While you in contrast have nothing but a great deal of "let them eat cake "

Quote:More to the point, you work for for the very system that causes a suicide rate among the people you allegedly "help" to be 9X higher than the norm. 

The system didn't cause it . I have help fix some of it and you have fuck all accept vapidly say " solve it yourself because I got nothing " 

Quote:You also think it's hateful for me to believe that a suicide rate of 9X the norm is too high.

No but you are for openly embracing a group that is hostile to the trans community and has done a lot to undermine what little help their is .

Quote:I'm an awful homophobe for thinking that maybe trans people ought to look for a better solution to their problems than the one that's led them to a suicide rate of 9X the norm. 

Nope your just a douche who offers nothing 

Quote:This is Darwinism in action...

Nope it's your stupidity

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Quote:No, because people who are able to solve their own damn problems tend to be considerably less miserable in life.  You can solve your own problems. Why the hell do you think other people don't want to. Would you be happy in life if the only way you could get a job or a home would be to come beg me for help? Why should anyone be in that position? Why do you think anyone likes having to be in that position to begin with?

So a bunch of rhetoric and assertions then and no solutions

Quote:O,h the "We will do it better!" argument. Yeah.... that's worked out pretty well for just about no one ever. Maybe you should go to the inner city and ask some black people how "We'll do it better!" is working out. Visit N. Korea and see how well it "We'll do communism better!" is working out for them. 

Yup we can do better . Your examples are moot and again you offer nothing but more vapid rhetoric.  

Quote:No, I have every confidence that they can do a better job of helping themselves than you've done trying to solve all their problems for them.

So again no solutions just more rhetoric and no acknowledgment of the right hostility to the trans community on non legal grounds .

Quote:No, you're just a fucking moron.

Nope you just like fapping to your own rhetoric and frankly sticks and stones 


I give you another chance and you again waste my time  back on ignore 

(December 24, 2018 at 4:04 am)Amarok Wrote:

Quote:You have your little advocacy beliefs and want to pass a bunch of laws that clearly won't work any better than they ones we already have.

Nope I have my track record of effectively helping trans people and my suggestion that we actually make the laws work . While you in contrast have nothing but a great deal of "let them eat cake "

Suicide rate 9X the norm. Eating cake might be better than the solutions you have been using.  

Quote:More to the point, you work for for the very system that causes a suicide rate among the people you allegedly "help" to be 9X higher than the norm. 

The system didn't cause it . I have help fix some of it and you have fuck all accept vapidly say " solve it yourself because I got nothing " 

The system certainly hasn't fucking STOPPED it either. If anything it's gotten worse because of the system. Treating people like they're too stupid and helpless to solve their own problems never works.

Quote:You also think it's hateful for me to believe that a suicide rate of 9X the norm is too high.

No but you are for openly embracing a group that is hostile to the trans community and has done a lot to undermine what little help their is .

What group is that exactly? Think it through dumbass. I'm saying that the trans community should find their own solutions that don't make over half of them try to kill themselves. Are you really such a fucking dumbass that you think the transgender community is openly hostile to itself?

Quote:I'm an awful homophobe for thinking that maybe trans people ought to look for a better solution to their problems than the one that's led them to a suicide rate of 9X the norm. 

Nope your just a douche who offers nothing 

And you're a douche that's making people want to kill themselves.