(December 26, 2018 at 2:16 pm)polymath257 Wrote:

(December 26, 2018 at 2:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's likely true that our behaviors need to reliably produce survival, but it's not necessarily true that the truths that our minds refer to actually be true, only that believing them to be true leads to successful, pro-survival behaviors.  It's entirely possible that we do all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons.  So long as we do the right things, how would we go about determining that the reasons we did them were the right reasons?  There doesn't appear to be a way out of this quandary.

But in order to do the right things, the interpretation has to have *some* correlation with reality. of course we don't see the entire picture: we don't see radio waves, for example, nor infrared. But what we do see does correspond to at least part of what is 'out there'. If it did not, it would seem quite unlikely that we would be able to do the 'right thing' even for survival.

If it can work in some possible world, then it can work in the actual world. It can work that way in some given possible world, therefore it can work that way in our world. Probability or likelihood is just an intuition that you project onto the brute possibility. The true situation is that you have know way of knowing what the likelihood of this being the case is. You assert that it is unlikely, likely simply because you find the argument that successful behavior necessarily requires correct interpretations of reality, but that argument is flawed, because it isn't necessary that it do so, and so your estimate of the likelihood of the converse is also flawed, and for that reason.

(December 26, 2018 at 6:59 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(December 26, 2018 at 2:16 pm)polymath257 Wrote: But in order to do the right things, the interpretation has to have *some* correlation with reality. of course we don't see the entire picture: we don't see radio waves, for example, nor infrared. But what we do see does correspond to at least part of what is 'out there'. If it did not, it would seem quite unlikely that we would be able to do the 'right thing' even for survival.

If it can work in some possible world, then it can work in the actual world.  It can work that way in some given possible world, therefore it can work that way in our world.  Probability or likelihood is just an intuition that you project onto the brute possibility.  The true situation is that you have know way of knowing what the likelihood of this being the case is.  You assert that it is unlikely, likely simply because you find the argument that successful behavior necessarily requires correct interpretations of reality, but that argument is flawed, because it isn't necessary that it do so, and so your estimate of the likelihood of the converse is also flawed, and for that reason.

Hmm....I tend to find the notion of possible worlds to be rather incoherent also. How do we know whether a system is consistent or not? It really isn't an issue that is easy to resolve (see Godel's work).

In any case, the simple fact that something consistently works is enough for me to say it is real. The *definition* of the 'real world' is via models made upon observation and testing. That is also the underlying definition of 'existence'. There is no guarantee the conclusions are 'correct' in some philosophical sense. But that isn't a reasonable approach in any case. Alternative, internally consistent, descriptions that predict the same observations are equivalent theories.

So, as a matter of argument, how would a remarkably wrong interpretation lead to results that are consistent enough to allow survival?

That's why I coined the term Truth-In-Context ™. 1) It's all I care about, because my existence is in a particular context; 2) Truth doesn't need to be rooted in anything beyond experience.

(December 26, 2018 at 4:48 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You trust/use it, cause it's THE best you got. You just realize it's not prefect in it's analyses of THE world around you.

you mean I have no choice?   
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide 

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(December 26, 2018 at 5:01 am)Amarok Wrote: If you have a better option ...

 I dont
We have to take What we perceive..

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(December 26, 2018 at 6:42 am)Thoreauvian Wrote:

(December 26, 2018 at 1:53 am)zainab Wrote: If consciousness is a product of evolution, how can we trust its outputs?

We can't, thus science and logic.  Welcome to the world of skeptics.

I dont want to be a skeptist 
I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!

(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote:

(December 26, 2018 at 4:48 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You trust/use it, cause it's THE best you got. You just realize it's not prefect in it's analyses of THE world around you.

you mean I have no choice?   
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide 

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(December 26, 2018 at 5:01 am)Amarok Wrote: If you have a better option ...

 I dont
We have to take What we perceive..

Yup for better or worst

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Quote:I dont want to be a skeptist 

It 's possible to be a skeptic but still make claims with some certainty 

Quote:I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!

Paralyzed against who?

(December 26, 2018 at 9:01 am)Amarok Wrote: [url=https://atheistforums.org/post-1872132.html#pid1872132][/url]

Quote:If consciousness is a product of evolution, how can we trust its outputs?

And it should not be because ?

Our consciousness was not designed to realize the world .. It grew up and evolved for our survival

(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote:

(December 26, 2018 at 4:48 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You trust/use it, cause it's THE best you got. You just realize it's not prefect in it's analyses of THE world around you.

you mean I have no choice?   
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide 

---

I guess, if you're a defeatist who values clarity and objectivity so much that without it, life becomes unbareable.

Most of us aren't like that, but Hey, you do you.

(December 27, 2018 at 2:45 am)Amarok Wrote:

(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote: you mean I have no choice?   
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide 

---

 I dont
We have to take What we perceive..

Yup for better or worst

---

Quote:I dont want to be a skeptist 

It 's possible to be a skeptic but still make claims with some certainty 

Quote:I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!

Paralyzed against who?

(December 27, 2018 at 4:19 am)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote: you mean I have no choice?   
Either I accept the world as it is or I commit suicide 

---

I guess, if you're a defeatist who values clarity and objectivity so much that without it, life becomes unbareable.

Most of us aren't like that, but Hey, you do you.

Nooooo, i will survive

(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote: I dont want to be a skeptist 
I will feel that I am paralyzed .. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any Case !!!!

What do you think a skeptic is?

(December 27, 2018 at 2:16 am)zainab Wrote:

(December 26, 2018 at 6:42 am)Thoreauvian Wrote: We can't, thus science and logic.  Welcome to the world of skeptics.

I don't want to be a skeptic. 
I will feel that I am paralyzed. I will not be able to take any action or even take a stand in any case !!!!

Skeptics emphasize the unreliability of human perceptions and assumptions among other things. However, that doesn't paralyze us in most cases because we still understand we must all act by our best guesses, by probabilities rather than certainties. Think of skepticism as a variety of humility in the face of the facts. Even mistakes can be useful feedback.

Skepticism is also a big motivator for certain kinds of action, like learning more and being more careful, rather than jumping to conclusions based on too little information or cultural and personal prejudices.

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(December 27, 2018 at 4:11 am)zainab Wrote: Our consciousness was not designed to realize the world .. It grew up and evolved for our survival

A highly developed consciousness is just one of many evolved strategies for survival among various species. It has also lent itself to understanding the world in remarkable detail, as a bonus. We just have to be careful in how we apply it. Thus science and logic.