(December 27, 2018 at 7:55 pm)Belaqua Wrote: ~ All adult atheists have heard claims made by religious people. For example: "God made the world."

Not unless they're deaf ... or living in isolation away from society their whole life.

Quote:All of us reject these claims. We do not find them persuasive.

No, not all adult atheists reject these claims explicitly, and not all of us here in the forums are necessarily such explicit atheists.

Quote:~ We reject these claims because we have solid convictions about what constitutes good evidence. For example, "scientific evidence is better than revelation, and there is no scientific evidence that God made the world."

This is the case with some atheists, not all.

Quote:~ Therefore, all adult atheists have commitments concerning the way we evaluate truth claims, and these commitments lead us to reject the claims made by religious people.

Not necessarily.

Quote:~ If we didn't have commitments concerning the way we evaluate truth claims, it would mean that we reject religious claims based on no reasons, but merely on a whim or by personal preference.

Or maybe they're atheists by default.

Atheism simply means "no theism". Someone who hasn't been exposed to theism in any way or form (and therefore lacks that positive belief in god) is an atheist by default.

And before you bring up rocks and lizards and such, no, they don't count ... much in the same way that having hair vs. being bald does not apply to some objects/beings.

(December 27, 2018 at 8:44 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(December 27, 2018 at 8:08 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I was an atheist before I had any solid convictions about evidence, and even today, questions of whether or not some fucking fairy created the earth..as a gnostic atheist, don't have much bearing on my atheism.[...]

Here is a typical claim about God, which would be familiar to any Neoplatonic Christian, from Augustine to Simone Weil: "All good in the world derives from and ultimately points back to the form of the good, which is God." 

I assume you reject this claim. Would it be correct to say that you find it to be nonsense?

When you reject it (if you do) do you have reasons to reject it? Or do you reject it out of habit, or for no reasons?

Well..sure.  I'm many decades older now than I was then.  I understand what's being said....today, and reject it, today, from my perch as a gnostic atheist.  If you asked my five year old self..though, I'd have just said something like:

"Cool story" - and not believed you. No particular reason, no understanding of neoplatonist christianity or the vast inanity of christian belief...no reason whatsoever, really...I just wasn't the believing type. I was an atheist, then, because I just didn't believe in god stories. I'm still an atheist, today...but not the same kind of atheist as I was then. Just as many of the folks on these boards are atheists, but not atheists like I am. I really can't stress this enough...if you have an issue or objection to gnostic atheists, like me, with positive beliefs about the nonexistence of gods...then here I am. Ask and or lob away. The rest of these folks just aren't the droids you're looking for. You're wasting your time (and tanking your credibility) insisting that they hold the same position that I do. They don't. Understand?

-and we're still just discussing the minute sample of abrahamic gods, above....aren't we?

(December 27, 2018 at 8:26 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(December 27, 2018 at 8:14 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Twas magical pop rocks.

So....nothing to say, like usual?

It did say something.  Didn't you catch the bit about the magical pop rocks?

(December 27, 2018 at 9:01 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I understand what's being said....today, and reject it, today, from my perch as a gnostic atheist.  

Good. That's all I was talking about. My claim was about adult atheists, so baby atheists aren't included. 

You hold it to be true (i.e. you believe) that the Christian claim I quoted is not true. If you held that it were persuasive, and true, you would no longer be an atheist. 

Therefore, your atheism as currently constituted is based on at least one belief.

Bel...I don't think this is sinking in...but, my positions are not necessary to atheism.  They're not even common. Ive gotten into spats on these boards, with other atheists, lol, about them. Feel me? As far as positive beliefs go..I am your guy. The rest of these folks..though, by and large, just aren't.

My atheism still isn't constituted on a positive belief, no more than it ever was. My -gnosticism- is. The reason that I don't believe is still the same..I'm just not the type. The reason that I know better is separate and distinct from that.

-If you want to bitch at a gnostic atheist, here I am. If you want to bitch at every atheist as though they thought what I do..well..you're just flat out wrong, and there's nothing else to say about that.

(December 28, 2018 at 12:41 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Bel...I don't think this is sinking in...but, my positions are not necessary to atheism.  They're not even common.  Ive gotten into spats on these boards, with other atheists, lol, about them.  Feel me?  As far as positive beliefs go..I am your guy.  The rest of these folks..though, by and large, just aren't.

My atheism still isn't constituted on a positive belief, no more than it ever was.  My -gnosticism- is.  The reason that I don't believe is still the same..I'm just not the type.  The reason that I know better is separate and distinct from that.

-If you want to bitch at a gnostic atheist, here I am.  If you want to bitch at every atheist as though they thought what I do..well..you're just flat out wrong, and there's nothing else to say about that.

I don't want to bitch at anybody.

I want to show that any thinking adult who has heard and rejected the claims made by religious people has rejected those claims based on beliefs that he has.

You're still..plainly and simply, wrong... with respect to atheism, Bel.  A person may not believe your story..or a person my positively disbelieve your story...but it's just one god story in a sea of others. What you want to show can't be shown..because it's myopic and inaccurate.

The vast majority of people here, and atheists at large, are agnostics. That's just a fact of self reporting. They don't have any positive beliefs against gods...even if they do have positive beliefs against your silly abrahamic god, a drop in a sea of the divine. They may positively disbelieve in your tiny drop...but that doesn't mean that this attitude extends to a positive disbelief of the entire ocean, as much as it may seem that way to you...a person who actually does have such a positive disbelief.

(December 28, 2018 at 12:50 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: A person may not believe your story..or a person my positively disbelieve your story...

That's right. That's what I mean by "rejecting a claim."

Quote:but it's just one god story in a sea of others.  

That's right. A person may need lots of different reasons to reject lots of different claims.

Quote:The vast majority of people here, and atheists at large, are agnostics.  

That's fine. Agnostics are also perfectly capable of rejecting (i.e. refusing to accept as true) a claim.

Quote:They don't have any positive beliefs against gods...

That's fine. They still have positive beliefs concerning various claims about gods. Namely, whether the claims are persuasive or not.

Quote:They may positively disbelieve in your tiny drop...

They would have to positively reject any religious claim they had heard in order to continue being an atheist. 

Quote:but that doesn't mean that this attitude extends to a positive disbelief of the entire ocean

That's true. No one has heard every single possible claim.

To be an atheist only requires rejecting as unpersuasive those claims which one has heard.

-but it doesn't require a positive disbelief in any general claim - thus, agnostic atheism...the vastly more common form. "I don't believe your stupid stories" and "I believe that there are no gods" are not the same statement.

If...you want...to bitch..at a gnostic atheist...here I am. If you want to pretend that every atheist shares my position..then you're simply wrong.

37 pages have been wasted, thusfar, trying to manufacture someone to bitch at for no apparent reason...but it was all a pointless endeavor, lol.

(December 28, 2018 at 1:12 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: -but it doesn't require a positive disbelief in any general claim - thus, agnostic atheism...the vastly more common form.  "I don't believe your stupid stories" and "I believe that there are no gods" are not the same statement.  

If...you want...to bitch..at a gnostic atheist...here I am.  If you want to pretend that every atheist shares my position..then you're simply wrong.

37 pages have been wasted, thusfar, trying to manufacture someone to bitch at for no apparent reason...but it was all a pointless endeavor, lol.

All I am claiming is that when you say "I don't believe your stupid stories," you don't believe them for a reason.