One thing that needs to be remember is that Judaic theology and Christian theology are two different things, not to mention two different religions. Jewish concept of a "messiah" is an earthly ruler and it centers around the Jewish people and Israel. Not a supernatural offspring from an invisible deity with the intent of saving all of humanity. Also for the "messiah" to arrive, certain things have to take place with regards to the state of Israel, Jews, the religion, re-construction of the temple and so on. Not blood moons, four horsemen, not vague (or poor) interpretations of Judaic theology and philosophy, or beings with several eyes, so on and so on. Simple comparative religious studies show that the Judaism and Christianity are just spin offs of one another. Judaism and Christianity are spin offs of the local folk religions. Christianity clams of fulfillment of prophecies to claim legitimacy of it's claims while at same time returns to the polytheistic beliefs of the region and Europe. As time has gone on, Christianity is just a conglomeration local pagan beliefs. Trinity, ritual, divinity, un-speakable names of god, and so on.

(January 3, 2019 at 6:45 pm)DoubtingHerFaith Wrote: one of the things that trips me up the most is that Jesus did fulfill a lot of old testament Prophecies. other than that, I wouldn't have as much of a hard time leaving my beliefs completely behind

https://ehrmanblog.org/jesus-and-the-mes...rophecies/

Read.

(January 3, 2019 at 5:50 pm)DoubtingHerFaith Wrote: Well in Christianity in Revelations a bunch of stuff is supposed to happen first, and I guess I never noticed how in the Gospels they seemed to be anticipating it happening during their lifetime! yeah, I really didn't notice and I didn't notice Jesus saying

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“

soo........."Truly" that's a lie..........

Define what you believe the kingdom is.

GC

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(January 4, 2019 at 3:47 pm)alw0992 Wrote: One thing that needs to be remember is that Judaic theology and Christian theology are two different things, not to mention two different religions. Jewish concept of a "messiah" is an earthly ruler and it centers around the Jewish people and Israel. Not a supernatural offspring from an invisible deity with the intent of saving all of humanity. Also for the "messiah" to arrive, certain things have to take place with regards to the state of Israel, Jews, the religion, re-construction of the temple and so on. Not blood moons, four horsemen, not vague (or poor) interpretations of Judaic theology and philosophy, or beings with several eyes, so on and so on. Simple comparative religious studies show that the Judaism and Christianity are just spin offs of one another. Judaism and Christianity are spin offs of the local folk religions. Christianity clams of fulfillment of prophecies to claim legitimacy of it's claims while at same time returns to the polytheistic beliefs of the region and Europe. As time has gone on, Christianity is just a conglomeration local pagan beliefs. Trinity, ritual, divinity, un-speakable names of god, and so on.

Funny thing you have stated, you say Judaism and Christianity are two different religions, the you proceed to say they are spin offs of each other, which would make them intertwined and basically the same, seems you need to believe one or the other. For the Jews the messiah might mean an earthly ruler for them, they have always been an arrogant people the bible shows us this clearly. What else does the Bible teach clearly that the "Messiah" is for all people and this teaching starts in the OT. Another thing the Trinity is mentioned though not by name in the first chapters of Genesis and even affirmed in the NT. This covers thousands of years.

GC

Most scholars are of the opinion that, 1) Jesus and his contemporaries believed the World to be flat ("Every eye shall see him"), and 2) that Jesus would return during the lifetimes of those who knew him:

Wikipedia -- Second Coming of Jesus

It seems Jesus is less reliable than the Terninator.


When he says "I'll be back" - you can count on it......

(January 4, 2019 at 12:25 pm)Drich Wrote: Some didn't.Through some of the profetic writtings of Paul it is said he was privy to the end, and the whole book of revelation is a huge testament that John saw everything there was to come at the end. remember how this book was written. as a historical account meaning he wrote down everything he saw and explained it the best way he could.

I think we should concede this point. I doubt John actually wrote Revelation, which would render your point invalid, but the lore here seems to be acceptably consistent.  Jesus could have meant that John wouldn't die until he had his vision. Again I doubt this was the intent of what was said but your model does encapsulate it.

(January 5, 2019 at 9:10 am)onlinebiker Wrote: It seems Jesus is less reliable than the Terninator.


When he says "I'll be back" - you can count on it......

Terminator had far fewer psychiatric problems than Jesus.

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(January 5, 2019 at 7:45 am)Jehanne Wrote: Most scholars are of the opinion that, 1) Jesus and his contemporaries believed the World to be flat ("Every eye shall see him"), and 2) that Jesus would return during the lifetimes of those who knew him:

Wikipedia -- Second Coming of Jesus

The more learned of his contemporaies certainly knew the world was not flat, nor the dead could come back to life.

But Jesus and his ilk were amongst the least learned of his illerate and ignorant age.

(January 3, 2019 at 6:45 pm)DoubtingHerFaith Wrote: one of the things that trips me up the most is that Jesus did fulfill a lot of old testament Prophecies. other than that, I wouldn't have as much of a hard time leaving my beliefs completely behind

Jesus fulfilled nothing because there was nothing to fulfill. A summary of Deuteronomy 18 is as follows:

The people are terrified of Jehovah and think they might die if they see him or hear his voice. Moses had been acting as a mediator between Jehovah and the people, and they liked that system. So they decided to establish the rules for prophets.

If a prophet makes a prophecy and it comes true, then that person is verified to speak for Jehovah. They can then... well... speak for Jehovah. Like saying that Jehovah is mad because X, Y, Z. That's as far as prophecy goes. To cement this point, false prophets were supposed to be executed. How would they know someone is a false prophet unless his prophecy failed to come true in his lifetime? A prophecy MUST come true in the prophet's lifetime or else anyone could prophesy anything and never be punished. Further, what's the point of a far-future prophecy? A parlor trick? A prophecy that is fulfilled immediately allows the Jews to know that a man speaks for Jehovah. There's an actual purpose.

If Daniel, for example, was talking about the far future, why would the Jews preserve and copy his books (during an era when books costed more than cars do today) for centuries only to then not believe in the man who supposedly fulfilled them? That's comically stupid. Daniel was considered a prophet because (according to the story) his prophecies came true. That's why his books were preserved.

The notion of far-future prophecies was born from the idea of "living" vs "dead" scriptures. If an old scripture could not be reinterpreted for modern times, it was dead. To force the old scriptures to remain alive, the gospel writers, most notoriously Matthew, took verses out of context.

Matthew took Hosea 11:1 out of context. Quite clearly. As far as the virgin birth, it doesn't matter even if the word there really was "virgin" and not "young maiden." The context of Isaiah 7 is this:

The king of Judah fears he will be attacked. Isaiah says that this will not happen and that the king can ask heaven for a sign. The king declined, but Isaiah gave one anyway: that a "virgin" would give birth and that before the child would be old enough to know right from wrong, the king's enemies would be destroyed.

How that is to be interpreted as something that should be expected in 500 years is beyond me.

Btw the prophecy, in genuine biblical fashion, was fulfilled in the very next chapter.

Chapter 7

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Chapter 8

1 Moreover the LORD said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz.

2 And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.

3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.

4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.



So... Isaiah predicts that a "virgin" or "young maiden" would give birth. Then he gets two witnesses to watch him have sex with a prophetess. And notice the language describing the kid in verse 4 is clearly referring to the original prophecy in verse 16 of the previous chapter.

Why the kid's name changes from Immanuel to the mouthful I don't know. But Christians have no answer as to why Immanuel changes to Jesus either. And Immanuel being "God with us" fits my narrative perfectly. Jehovah was with them because their enemies would be destroyed (incidentally, this prophecy failed and Judah was attacked by these very enemies because the next king refused to pay tribute; Judah would later on be destroyed by Babylon). I think that "God as one of us" would have better fit the Christian narrative.


If there are any other prophecies you think were fulfilled, let me know and I'll take a look.

(January 5, 2019 at 12:32 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(January 5, 2019 at 9:10 am)onlinebiker Wrote: It seems Jesus is less reliable than the Terninator.


When he says "I'll be back" - you can count on it......

Terminator had far fewer psychiatric problems than Jesus.

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(January 5, 2019 at 7:45 am)Jehanne Wrote: Most scholars are of the opinion that, 1) Jesus and his contemporaries believed the World to be flat ("Every eye shall see him"), and 2) that Jesus would return during the lifetimes of those who knew him:

Wikipedia -- Second Coming of Jesus

The more learned of his contemporaies certainly knew the world was not flat, nor the dead could come back to life.

But Jesus and his ilk were amongst the least learned of his illerate and ignorant age.

That's why no one in Roman, Greek or Jewish intellectual circles paid attention to Jesus while he was alive; they knew a crank when they saw (or heard about) one, and he was not worth mentioning, even in passing.

(January 5, 2019 at 12:18 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:

(January 4, 2019 at 12:25 pm)Drich Wrote: Some didn't.Through some of the profetic writtings of Paul it is said he was privy to the end, and the whole book of revelation is a huge testament that John saw everything there was to come at the end. remember how this book was written. as a historical account meaning he wrote down everything he saw and explained it the best way he could.

I think we should concede this point. I doubt John actually wrote Revelation, which would render your point invalid, but the lore here seems to be acceptably consistent.  Jesus could have meant that John wouldn't die until he had his vision. Again I doubt this was the intent of what was said but your model does encapsulate it.

Have you even read the book of revelation? Chapter ! verse 1 John self identifies as the author of revelation!

 This is a revelation[a] from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen soon. And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 2 who has told everything he saw. It is the truth that Jesus Christ told him; it is the message from God. 3 Great blessings belong to the person who reads the words of this message from God and to those who hear this message and do what is written in it. There is not much time left.
John Writes to the Churches
4 From John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

So yeah perfect reason to doubt john authorship.. could have been any one named john, bt wait he identifies as "his servant John" meaning He literally served or walked along side Christ which is what this word means. Not a follower in the broader sense of Christianity but the greek word doulos which means slave servant disciple, John...

That said Jesus did say not all of you would pass before you saw me coming in my kingdom again.. let look at how rev 1 is phrased:
 And Christ sent his angel to show it to his servant John, 

Meaning while John was alive He literally saw everything in the book that he is about to describe. This by it self full fills Christ's proclamation. 

That said I also think in a linear basis when it comes to the end times. 
Our problem is we do not understand we are in a bubble of time and space and when we die we wake up outside of the bubble being able to see all of it from beginning to end. It is lke holding a DVD now if you where in the movie contained in the DVD you would be apart of that movie's time and space and would have to see thing play out. how eve outside of the dvd you can encapsulate the whole time and space continuum. as you are no apart of the movie tie line. meaning you can see or experience any part of the movie at any point,for you movie time and real world time are not the same. thik lord of the rings. How long do you think they were on their journey to destroy the ring days weeks months? now what of to us? outside their little bubble of time and space? a few hours total?

So who is right frodo when he said it was a long life changing adventure that took some time to complete or the person watch the movie who said the movies has a good pace and it was over before I knew it!

It is all a matter of perspective.as when we die we are pull from this DVD this bubble and placed in the real world. to us it would be instantaneous which is why we have the warning. One minute you are on the toilet mocking God on your favorite web ste next blik of an eye you are standing for Christ in judgement.

So when the bible says His kingdom is near it is speaking to your perception of how things will play out. As time is relative.